Children of God

[angellous_evangellous]

So either Luke is lying or was mistaken?

It's likely that he is using the figure of Paul to accomplish his own ends, though I wouldn't call it a mistake or a lie. No part of Scripture is intended to be a modern news report for a Western audience. Arististic liscense is very acceptable in the ancient Near East.

How then can we trust any scripture?

:beach:

 

[Polaris]

It's likely that he is using the figure of Paul to accomplish his own ends, though I wouldn't call it a mistake or a lie. No part of Scripture is intended to be a modern news report for a Western audience. Arististic liscense is very acceptable in the ancient Near East.

So not only is the reference to "offspring of God" a misleading metaphor, but the reference to Paul is supposed to be interpreted as figurative and artistic? Wow, thank goodness for "Biblical scholars" to straighten out this rat's nest. Whatever happened to the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)?

How could you possibly reach such conclusions? How is any normal truth-seeking person supposed to ever understand anything in the bible if this is an example of how it should be interpreted?

 

[Special Revelation]

So not only is the reference to "offspring of God" a misleading metaphor, but the reference to Paul is supposed to be interpreted as figurative and artistic? Wow, thank goodness for "Biblical scholars" to straighten out this rat's nest. Whatever happened to the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)?

How could you possibly reach such conclusions? How is any normal truth-seeking person supposed to ever understand anything in the bible if this is an example of how it should be interpreted?

The only way to understand God's Word is through the illuminating work of God the Holy Spirit. Apart from the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believer, a person will not be able to see spiritual truth, or the kingdom of God (John 3).

 

[*Paul*]

We are not born dead in sin, we are born innocent,

Scriptural evidence?

To suggest that a newborn is dead in sin, or is somehow accoutable for Adam's transgression makes absolutely no sense.

No one said he is accountable, what I am saying is we are born under the effects of it one of which is an inherant proclivity towards sin. If babies were born innocent and not dead in sin then they would not be under the effects of the curse and you would not have babies being susceptible to death or diease until they first sin.

So we're not really the offspring of God, we're simply recipients of divine suscitation?

Was Adam? The only description we have of Adams coming to life is his receiving divine suscitation yet he is called the son of God.

I disagree. We are literally the spirit children of God -- we actually are His offspring -- and we become metaphorical children of disobedience as we disobey the commands of God.

Any yet we are by nature (our natural selves) children of wrath? If we were borbn differently then it would be wrong to describe it as nature, we would be by nature children of God, then fall from that when we sin, then restored to that when we are born again. That is biblically unsupportable.

 

[Polaris]

The only way to understand God's Word is through the illuminating work of God the Holy Spirit. Apart from the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believer, a person will not be able to see spiritual truth, or the kingdom of God (John 3).

I agree, the Holy Spirit can help us to know the truth. The question then is who's interpretation is consistant with the truth -- who's interpretation is in line with that of the Holy Spirit?

I have a hard time believing that Paul said we're the "offspring of God" but didn't really mean it, and I have a hard time believing that Luke was referring to Paul only figuratively.

 

[Special Revelation]

I agree, the Holy Spirit can help us to know the truth. The question then is who's interpretation is consistant with the truth -- who's interpretation is in line with that of the Holy Spirit?

I have a hard time believing that Paul said we're the "offspring of God" but didn't really mean it, and I have a hard time believing that Luke was referring to Paul only figuratively.

I believe God the Holy Spirit dwells in all believers in Christ since Pentecost and through the 21st Century. Since God reveals truth to His adopted children, they have a uniformed faith for 2,000 years... one faith, on Spirit...etc (Ephesians 4). I know this is a very difficult concept to understand as a Mormon Christian.

 

[Polaris]

Scriptural evidence?

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3). It makes no sense for Christ to counsel us to become as little children if they were dead in sin.

Common sense: Newborns are not capable of committing sin, therefore they are innocent and sinless.

No one said he is accountable, what I am saying is we are born under the effects of it one of which is an inherant proclivity towards sin. If babies were born innocent and not dead in sin then they would not be under the effects of the curse and you would not have babies being susceptible to death or diease until they first sin.

I agree that we are born in a fallen state -- meaning that we are away from the presence of God and we are susceptible to tempation and sin. However that doesn't mean we are born dead in sin, we are born innocent and without sin.

Was Adam? The only description we have of Adams coming to life is his receiving divine suscitation yet he is called the son of God.

Yes Adam is included among the offspring of God and is rightly called a son of God. The description in Genesis 2:7 is clearly figurative. Do you believe we are literally made out of dust?

Any yet we are by nature (our natural selves) children of wrath? If we were born differently then it would be wrong to describe it as nature, we would be by nature children of God, then fall from that when we sin, then restored to that when we are born again. That is biblically unsupportable.

I don't believe that we are born "children of wrath". We can become children of wrath due to sinfulness. The bottom line is we are born innocent, without sin, but we are born into a state in which we are susceptible to temptation and sin, hence we all need the Savior. We are more than just God's creation, we are the children of God, just as the scriptures constantly and consistently declare.

 

[Polaris]

I believe God the Holy Spirit dwells in all believers in Christ since Pentecost and through the 21st Century.

Good, then I speak the truth: I believe in Christ and I happen to fall between the Pentecost and the 21st century. Those poor souls who lived before the Pentecost

Since God reveals truth to His adopted children, they have a uniformed faith for 2,000 years... one faith, on Spirit...etc (Ephesians 4).

Uniformed faith? Are you very familiar with Christian history? Christianity is hardly uniformed.

 

[*Paul*]

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3). It makes no sense for Christ to counsel us to become as little children if they were dead in sin.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
He is speaking of a childs humility nothing more which is in contrast to their question :
Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Common sense: Newborns are not capable of committing sin, therefore they are innocent and sinless.

And yet they suffer from the effects of Adams fall, death and disease etc which goes to show that they have inherited and had passed onto them the nature of fallen man. Death came by sin.

I agree that we are born in a fallen state -- meaning that we are away from the presence of God and we are susceptible to tempation and sin. However that doesn't mean we are born dead in sin, we are born innocent and without sin.

Job 14v1: Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14v4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Ps 51v5: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 5v19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Eph 2v1-4: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Prov 22v15: Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Gen 8v21: And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ps 14v2-3: The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Jer 17v9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Yes Adam is included among the offspring of God and is rightly called a son of God. The description in Genesis 2:7 is clearly figurative. Do you believe we are literally made out of dust?

I do not take Genesis at all figuratively, why would you?

I don't believe that we are born "children of wrath". We can become children of wrath due to sinfulness.

Then we are not by nature children of wrath but became that way after we are born, Paul says differently.

 

[Polaris]

And yet they suffer from the effects of Adams fall, death and disease etc which goes to show that they have inherited and had passed onto them the nature of fallen man. Death came by sin.

Then we are not by nature children of wrath but became that way after we are born, Paul says differently.

The effects of Adam's fall include susceptibility to sin and death. Death, disease, physical temptations and tendencies, are all baggage that comes with us being mortals. We are born with that baggage due to our being born into mortality (a fallen state). Our spirits were born of God and were born innocent and pure. Are you suggesting that God created us as flawed and sinful spirits?

I do not take Genesis at all figuratively, why would you?

Because not all scripture is intended to be interpreted literally. I don't believe Adam was literally made out of dirt.

So all of Genesis is to be taken literally, but Acts 17 is to be figurative? Why?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

So what exactly is our relationship to God?
Are we merely His creation or are we indeed His children?
In what way are we His children?

While the concept is appropriate, we are more than children of God. God is our very essence and the seed of our attainment, not something "out there," not a presence to be attained, but reality to be realized, to be awakened to. We cannot hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but in all that pertains to self-realization and mind-attainment, we can be just as replete in our sphere of divine perfection as God is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. "Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness."

I said it before and I'll say it again: God is the light in the other side of the cosmic prism. In the spectra of his light we live, move and have our being. In God we have our existence; in us, God escapes the experiential limitations of undifferentiated infinity.

 

[*Paul*]

The effects of Adam's fall include susceptibility to sin and death. Death, disease, physical temptations and tendencies, are all baggage that comes with us being mortals. We are born with that baggage due to our being born into mortality (a fallen state). Our spirits were born of God and were born innocent and pure. Are you suggesting that God created us as flawed and sinful spirits?

THe bible does not say that our spirits are born of God until we are born again (from above), I am saying that God created adam perfect -body, soul and spirit, when he sinned he died spiritually and from that time on all his descendants are born spiritually dead and must be regenerated or born again.

Because not all scripture is intended to be interpreted literally. I don't believe Adam was literally made out of dirt.

The bible doesn't say he was made out of dirt it says God formed him of the dust of the ground, that's not saying adam was one big dirt man but God used the materials that were then present in the dust of the ground to form adam. No hint of there being any allegory, it's nice and straightforward.

So all of Genesis is to be taken literally, but Acts 17 is to be figurative? Why?

I do take it literally, i just define the offspring of the human race the same way as it is applied to adam, because they have the breath of God in them, their life comes from within God and so is an offspring of Him. Adam is called the son of God so we need to look at the account of how Adam came into being. I'm comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So not only is the reference to "offspring of God" a misleading metaphor, but the reference to Paul is supposed to be interpreted as figurative and artistic? Wow, thank goodness for "Biblical scholars" to straighten out this rat's nest. Whatever happened to the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)?

How could you possibly reach such conclusions? How is any normal truth-seeking person supposed to ever understand anything in the bible if this is an example of how it should be interpreted?

God's grace allows for both scholars and lay-people to be uplifted by God's word even if we have no understanding of the text. We can miss the point of the text because it is foreign to us, but hear the Word of the God whom we seek.

 

[sojourner]

Bible = Final Authority as Truth from God

In what way are we to interpret what that "Final Authority" has to say to us? In what way are we to understand and voice the "Truth" that we learn from our reading?

 

[sojourner]

Adam is the Father of our flesh for we are all descended from him yet we are born spiritually dead in adam so it cannot mean that we are the directly spiritually begotten children of God by nature because if we were we would would not inherit the consequences of adams fall and God does not create us dead in sin as that would be contrary to His Holy Nature.

God breathed Spirit into the man, and he became a living being. Part of the creative process for humanity is that "soft" duality of flesh and Spirit. Adam is an archetype for all humanity. We are all formed from earthy elements and contain the breath of life. If we did not contain the breath of life, we would be lifeless lumps of clay. It takes both for human beings to be human beings.

The "fall" story is not, in essence, a story of our departure from God, but a story of the process of human wisdom. Humans arrive in a utopian state of ignorance (babies.) Part of parenting is teaching them right from wrong. Knowing right from wrong is good. Moral discernment is good. But there's a price to be paid for it. The use of the serpent as a character in the story is the author's symbol for the coming of wisdom, not evil. The serpent is an ancient symbol for wisdom and healing, not evil and death.

 

[sojourner]

How then can we trust any scripture?

On the basis of good scholarship and our intuition.

 

[Polaris]

THe bible does not say that our spirits are born of God until we are born again (from above), I am saying that God created adam perfect -body, soul and spirit, when he sinned he died spiritually and from that time on all his descendants are born spiritually dead and must be regenerated or born again.

Sure our physical bodies are results of biological processes that have continued from the time of Adam, but our spirits are not descendant from Adam. Our spirits are descendant from God. He, not Adam, is the Father of our spirits.

The bible doesn't say he was made out of dirt it says God formed him of the dust of the ground, that's not saying adam was one big dirt man but God used the materials that were then present in the dust of the ground to form adam. No hint of there being any allegory, it's nice and straightforward.

I can agree with that intepretation, but you realize there are metaphorical overtones in that interpretation.

I do take it literally, i just define the offspring of the human race the same way as it is applied to adam, because they have the breath of God in them, their life comes from within God and so is an offspring of Him. Adam is called the son of God so we need to look at the account of how Adam came into being. I'm comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture.

Offspring - children or young of a particular parent or progenitor; descendant(s).

The literal interpretation of this word requires that we be children or descentants of God, literally. Any other interpretation is non-literal.

 

[Polaris]

God's grace allows for both scholars and lay-people to be uplifted by God's word even if we have no understanding of the text. We can miss the point of the text because it is foreign to us, but hear the Word of the God whom we seek.

I believe you are clearly missing the point of the text here, but as long as the Bible inspires you to be a better person then its not all in vain.

I believe that the scriptures were written with the purpose that we would read, study, understand, and apply them. I think for the most part they mean what they say. I trust for the most part they were written in the "simplicity that is in Christ".

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I believe you are clearly missing the point of the text here, but as long as the Bible inspires you to be a better person then its not all in vain.

I believe that the scriptures were written with the purpose that we would read, study, understand, and apply them. I think for the most part they mean what they say. I trust for the most part they were written in the "simplicity that is in Christ".

Surely you realize that every portion of the Bible was written thousands of years ago to a people who participated in a variety of foreign cultures. It's written in different langauges and addressed to people who had a completely different outlook on life than we do. What was simple to them is difficult for us to imagine, simply because we are products of a very different times, places, philosophies, and cultures. Therefore, actually "knowing" what a text actually "says" requires some investigation and reflection. If we were the ancient people who actually recieved the original work, we would be better equipt to understand it without thinking very much.

 

[*Paul*]

but our spirits are not descendant from Adam.

Each of our spirits are formed in us by God but not created anew, he forms them out of what we recieve by procreation inhertiting adams nature and curse, he forms those spirits how He sees fit which I would say ensures that we are all individual. Nowhere does the bible say that God creates in us new spirits except when we are made new creatures even then it is Him putting His Holy Spirit within us.

Our spirits are descendant from God. He, not Adam, is the Father of our spirits.

God is the Father of our Spirits, God is the father of Adams spirit. How can you say that we are by nature sons of God when the bible says we are by nature children of wrath? Are you comfortable directly contradicting the bible like that? Doesn't it make you worry that you are fighting against the word of Jehovah?
Think about it, if we are all born with spirits directly descendent from God then they would not be subject to corruption, that child would be immortal until it sinned because death came by sin. Death could have no power over a sinless one.

I can agree with that intepretation, but you realize there are metaphorical overtones in that interpretation.

Not really, their is much that you can get out of the text in SPiritual terms but you cannot say that it is it's primary meaning and intent, you would have no valid reason to except that it suits your theology. It says what it says, if words are to mean anything that is.

Offspring - children or young of a particular parent or progenitor; descendant(s).
The literal interpretation of this word requires that we be children or descentants of God, literally. Any other interpretation is non-literal.

I am not taking this unliterally other people are called sons of people who are not directly their sons. Here is an example:

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
The greek word huios means a son it is used for offspring but you know that Jesus literal father was not David.

Now the verse you use:
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device

The word used for offspring here is genos, it's primary usage is kind (5 times) it's definition is:
1) kindred
a) offspring
b) family
c) stock, tribe, nation
1) i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people
d) the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort

So you are wrong to insist on it the way that you do trying to make it means directly descendant. What you are doing is taking your LDs theology and imposing it on one verse.