• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Satan capable of good?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Not at all - each event was necessary to lead to the final effect.

But that doesn't measure which is the cause. That's the point.

I didn't say you did - I'm saying you should have.

OK. None the less, if an inanimate object is being considered the cause, then the inanimate object cannot do any harm on its own. It's a simultaneous event of forces interacting. Forces plural, not in a chain.

Indeed - But let's not ignore all the other events that led to that final effect.

If that is your model. The last one in the chain is the cause. Done.

Of course not. Everything led to the conflict. Every event is a part of the causal chain which led to the conflict.

Leading to the conflict, is not the cause. None the less, you have just admitted that the internet device is not the cause. The mouse trap is not the cause in exactly the same way.

If you wish to model it as a chain of events. The last event is the cause.

It seems, however, like you're looking to assign blame - and here's where your analogy falls down.
The mouse has no idea it's going to get its neck broken if it tries to eat the cheese in the trap, whereas the person clicking the advertisement knows full well what they're about to be browsing.

If the mousetrap hypotheitcal is abandoned, then yes, individuals are aware of avoiding satan, and they choose to engage with it exactly like the person choosing to comsume adult content online.

To improve your analogy, let's say instead that the pop-up advertisement is disguised as something innocuous - say, a link to an auto parts website. The person clicks on the ad hoping to find a new carburetor for a 1987 Honda Civic, and instead is inundated with hardcore porn.
The significant other sees this before the person has a chance to close the window.

It's still not the computer that caused the conflict. The autonomous inanimate object is not the cause ( noun ). It's the click-or-tap.

Maybe we can talk about the adverstiser, AFTER the computer and the mousetrap are eliminated as the cause.

Of course not - Because the causal chain we saw in the previous example has been broken.
Just as it would have been broken if the person had not decided to browse the internet that day, if the advertisement had never been there in the first place, or if the adult website had never existed.

Don't confuse "cause" with "blame."

The cause of the mouse in the trap is the mouse. The cause of the human consuming adult content is the human.

The cause is not the trap nor the internet device. The inanimate object is not the cause. You've admitted it.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
The cause of the mouse in the trap is the mouse. The cause of the human consuming adult content is the human.

The cause is not the trap nor the internet device. The inanimate object is not the cause. You've admitted it.

Right - So... is Satan an inanimate object?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Right - So... is Satan an inanimate object?

Lacking any will, is my proposal. Page 1, post #2 of the thread. A daemon like in computer science. A mouse trap is a great analogy of how I would describe satan. Nothing to be afraid of, just avoid it.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
Lacking any will, is my proposal. Page 1, post #2 of the thread.

Yes, I remember - I'm curious how you reconcile that with his depiction in the Bible.


A daemon like in computer science. A mouse trap is a great analogy of how I would describe satan. Nothing to be afraid of, just avoid it.

Wouldn't a gun be a more fitting analogy? Or perhaps a land mine?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In other words, it's wrong. In the Tanak the title of Satan is always associated with a living being. They have motivations which can be gleaned from the context.

Nah, not wrong. non-literal and incomplete. if you disagree, please take a video of yourself moving a mountain, cursing a fig-tree, and raising the dead. Those are promised Jesus made to you, literally, right?. I'll be offline for a bit. So you have plenty of time.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Those are promised Jesus made to you, literally, right?
Um, no. I wasn't there at the time.

The problem is also expressed as the "Synagogue of Satan" of Revelation 2:9, but for the book of Revelation Satan is the dragon.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Sure, we were discussing how Atheism is a form of faith. Satan offered an alternate belief system to faith and loyalty to the Father.
Evidence offers that.
Satan is a made up character who is an agent of Yahweh until after the Persian occupation where he becomes a devil in Christianity. Where in scripture does Satan offer atheism and why would he say to not believe a God he knows exists?

Atheism is what you have with Zeus and his underworld character in Hades, you don't believe in either and it wasn't the Greek devil that offered it to you. It was your method of knowing truth.
I also applied that to all religions and evidence backs it up.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Satan is a made up character who is an agent of Yahweh
No, Satan is simply a role or title.

And again the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Samuel 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1 Chronicles 21:1
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Evidence offers that.
Satan is a made up character who is an agent of Yahweh until after the Persian occupation where he becomes a devil in Christianity. Where in scripture does Satan offer atheism and why would he say to not believe a God he knows exists?

Atheism is what you have with Zeus and his underworld character in Hades, you don't believe in either and it wasn't the Greek devil that offered it to you. It was your method of knowing truth.
I also applied that to all religions and evidence backs it up.
In my scripture book which is the Urania Book revelation, Satan is an assistant to Lucifer, both sons of God who knew their Paradises creator brother Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth, but lived by faith in the unseen Universal Father. The "Lucifer manifesto is as follows:

The Lucifer Rebellion

3. The Lucifer Manifesto​

53:3.1 (603.2) Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

53:3.2 (603.3) 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

53:3.3 (603.4) 2. The universe government of the Creator Son—Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

53:3.4 (603.5) Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—“foreign potentates”—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

53:3.5 (603.6) He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

53:3.6 (604.1) 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

53:3.7 (604.2) And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death." UB 1955


CONT>
 
Last edited:

Colt

Well-Known Member

4. Outbreak of the Rebellion​

53:4.1 (604.3) The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces—physical, intellectual, and spiritual—but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels” and the “God of liberty.”

53:4.2 (604.4) Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion. One of his chief arguments was that, if self-government was good and right for the Melchizedeks and other groups, it was equally good for all orders of intelligence. He was bold and persistent in the advocacy of the “equality of mind” and “the brotherhood of intelligence.” He maintained that all government should be limited to the local planets and their voluntary confederation into the local systems. All other supervision he disallowed. He promised the Planetary Princes that they should rule the worlds as supreme executives. He denounced the location of legislative activities on the constellation headquarters and the conduct of judicial affairs on the universe capital. He contended that all these functions of government should be concentrated on the system capitals and proceeded to set up his own legislative assembly and organized his own tribunals under the jurisdiction of Satan. And he directed that the princes on the apostate worlds do the same.

53:4.3 (604.5) The entire administrative cabinet of Lucifer went over in a body and were sworn in publicly as the officers of the administration of the new head of “the liberated worlds and systems.”

53:4.4 (605.1) While there had been two previous rebellions in Nebadon, they were in distant constellations. Lucifer held that these insurrections were unsuccessful because the majority of the intelligences failed to follow their leaders. He contended that “majorities rule,” that “mind is infallible.” The freedom allowed him by the universe rulers apparently sustained many of his nefarious contentions. He defied all his superiors; yet they apparently took no note of his doings. He was given a free hand to prosecute his seductive plan without let or hindrance.

53:4.5 (605.2) All the merciful delays of justice Lucifer pointed to as evidence of the inability of the government of the Paradise Sons to stop the rebellion. He would openly defy and arrogantly challenge Michael, Immanuel, and the Ancients of Days and then point to the fact that no action ensued as positive evidence of the impotency of the universe and the superuniverse governments.

53:4.6 (605.3) Gabriel was personally present throughout all these disloyal proceedings and only announced that he would, in due time, speak for Michael, and that all beings would be left free and unmolested in their choice; that the “government of the Sons for the Father desired only that loyalty and devotion which was voluntary, wholehearted, and sophistry-proof.”

53:4.7 (605.4) Lucifer was permitted fully to establish and thoroughly to organize his rebel government before Gabriel made any effort to contest the right of secession or to counterwork the rebel propaganda. But the Constellation Fathers immediately confined the action of these disloyal personalities to the system of Satania. Nevertheless, this period of delay was a time of great trial and testing to the loyal beings of all Satania. All was chaotic for a few years, and there was great confusion on the mansion worlds." UB 1955
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, Satan is simply a role or title.

And again the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Samuel 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan changed. He was the Angel of Yahweh, one of the Sons of Yahweh and formed an identity throughout the OT.
Then he became a devil from syncretic borrowings from Persia and Greek underworld stories.

Modern ideas are from later times, some early, some Middle Ages.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
In my scripture book which is the Urania Book revelation,
Let me stop you right there. That is a bunch of made up fiction. I'm not interested in talking about modern cults, can you provide evidence this book is a revelation from God or anything supernatural?
What scientific revolutions or other did the book provide to help people understand it wasn't just fiction from a smart con-artist?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You asked:

Where in scripture does Satan offer atheism and why would he say to not believe a God he knows exists?

I provided a comprehensive answer. Either address the answer or do not ask questions that you don't really want answers to if your ultimate default is "well that's all made up" bla bla bla!
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You asked:



I provided a comprehensive answer. Either address the answer or do not ask questions that you don't really want answers to if your ultimate default is "well that's all made up" bla bla bla!
No no, the Bible is scripture. Not some modern con-artist, new age wu wu peddler.

Provide evidence that that fiction is true. I'm not interested in reading Abraham, Bashar, that, the Law of Attraction or any other new age fiction.

Who cares what some dude wrote in the 50's???????????????????????? Unless he predicrs 9/11, exact date, number of planes, where they hit, name of the organization, EVIDENCE
 
Top