For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Eli G]

The OT saints are going to be in the Kingdom of God, so why wouldn't John the Baptist also be in the Kingdom of God?
...

You didn't answer my question: What do you think Jesus meant with these words:

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is.

... or this more explicit passage:

Matt. 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John

...????

Before answering, just hear Jesus. Try to understand Jesus' words instead of trying to read your own ideas without understanding Jesus' teachings.

PS: That's the big mistake of most believers; they think they better trust what their own mind says than what they read in the Bible. Most of them do that because they think God talks to them in their own head, not with his written word.

 

[seekandfind]

If you have a look at the various translations [Dan 2:44] you can see that some have the kingdoms being destroyed and consumed.

Every translation I see shows not "some" as you claim, but "all" the Kingdoms(empires/governments/rulerships) get destroyed. Youll have to show me where you get "some"?

Personally I don't think that there will be nothing left.
Isa 60:11 Your gates will always stand open; they will never be shut, day or night, so that the wealth of the nations may be brought into you, with their kings being led in procession. 12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly destroyed.…

It is only those nations or kingdoms that do not serve those in Jerusalem that will be destroyed.
Rev 21:23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Isa 60:12. What kingdom on earth serves God? There isnt a single one.

Rev 21:24 Who are the nations? Who are the kings?
At this time the resurrection and final judgment all have past.

These "nations" are the gentiles who chose to follow God rather than Satan(Rev 7:9;14,15).

These "kings" are not the kings of the literal earth because those have been destroyed fighting against Gods Kingdom as shown here...
-"They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.....And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon." -Rev 16:14;16

-"I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.” - Rev 19:17-18

So the kings in Rev 21:24 are kings that have been appointed not by men but by God. They are the 144,000 of Gods Kingdom of Revelation....

-"and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Rev 5:10; 7:4 ?

What have I said that is against the scriptures?

"Jesus is equal to God", "the kingdoms of the earth dont get destroyed because they get 'absorbed' into Gods Kingdom", "Gods Kingdom is not a government"....just to name some

 

[Eli G]

In Paul's time there were some who believed that they were already kings. He told them that if they had been reigning, the apostles, who were working much harder than they were, would already be reigning as well.

1 Cor. 4:8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. 11 Down to this very hour we continue to hunger and thirst and to be poorly clothed and to be beaten and to be homeless 12 and to toil, working with our own hands. When insulted, we bless; when persecuted, we patiently endure; 13 when slandered, we answer mildly; we have become as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things, until now.

It's amazing how much someone's heart can deceive him.

 

[Brian2]

You didn't answer my question: What do you think Jesus meant with these words:

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is.

... or this more explicit passage:

Matt. 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John

...????

Before answering, just hear Jesus. Try to understand Jesus' words instead of trying to read your own ideas without understanding Jesus' teachings.

PS: That's the big mistake of most believers; they think they better trust what their own mind says than what they read in the Bible. Most of them do that because they think God talks to them in their own head, not with his written word.

For a start we should recognise that Matthew uses the term "Kingdom of heaven" instead of "Kingdom of God" and that is probably because he was not wanting to offend the Jews by using the word "God" and so uses a substitute. (otherwise we have the OT saints in the Kingdom of heaven according to Matthew 8:11-12)
To be in the Kingdom of God means that a person has been born again and is an adopted child of God and has the Spirit of God/Christ dwelling in him and joined with his spirit. This person is part of the new creation, which is certainly a step above (greater) than the natural man who has just been born of a woman.

How do you understand it?

 

[Eli G]

You still don't answer the question:
What do you think Jesus meant with these words:

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is.


...?

You can use any of both passages.

 

[Brian2]

In Paul's time there were some who believed that they were already kings. He told them that if they had been reigning, the apostles, who were working much harder than they were, would already be reigning as well.

1 Cor. 4:8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. 11 Down to this very hour we continue to hunger and thirst and to be poorly clothed and to be beaten and to be homeless 12 and to toil, working with our own hands. When insulted, we bless; when persecuted, we patiently endure; 13 when slandered, we answer mildly; we have become as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things, until now.

It's amazing how much someone's heart can deceive him.

Romans 5:17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

We can reign in this life over our own bodies and conquer the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Eli G]

Over whom are you reigning?

 

[Brian2]

You still don't answer the question:
What do you think Jesus meant with these words:

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is.


...?

You can use any of both passages.

I already told you why someone in the Kingdom of God is greater than someone who is not in the Kingdom of God.
That is what I think Jesus meant. I have answered.
You however have not answered me and told me what you think it means.

 

[Brian2]

Over whom are you reigning?

Over myself, my carnal nature, the lusts of the flesh.
We are to be conquerors of our sinful nature as Jesus was.

 

[Eli G]

I already told you why someone in the Kingdom of God is greater than someone who is not in the Kingdom of God.
That is what I think Jesus meant. I have answered.
You however have not answered me and told me what you think it means.

Jesus contiued saying:

Matt. 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John ...

You seem to have forgotten that part. John won't be king in heavens, but a subject on earth. He was not born again because he was not anointed in the 33 CE to be a brother of Jesus. Since he was not anointed with the spirit to inherit a heavenly place, he will be resucitated on earth in the Millennium ... like Daniel, like the angel told him:

Dan. 12:13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

Do you think Daniel will reign on heavens as well? Or do you believe what the angel told him?

 

[Brian2]

Every translation I see shows not "some" as you claim, but "all" the Kingdoms(empires/governments/rulerships) get destroyed. Youll have to show me where you get "some"?

I did not say that some Kingdoms get destroyed and consumed I said that some translations include the "consumed" part. So it may not necessarily mean that the Kingdoms completely disappear.

Isa 60:12. What kingdom on earth serves God? There isnt a single one.

We are talking about when the Kingdom has been set up on earth. (this might be the 1000 year reign for example)

Rev 21:24 Who are the nations? Who are the kings?
At this time the resurrection and final judgment all have past.

The nations at that time are part of the Kingdom of God on earth. Maybe they are those whom God has had mercy on but were not Christians, the first fruits.

These "nations" are the gentiles who chose to follow God rather than Satan(Rev 7:9;14,15).

These "kings" are not the kings of the literal earth because those have been destroyed fighting against Gods Kingdom as shown here...
-"They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.....And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon." -Rev 16:14;16

-"I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.” - Rev 19:17-18

So the kings in Rev 21:24 are kings that have been appointed not by men but by God. They are the 144,000 of Gods Kingdom of Revelation....

-"and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Rev 5:10; 7:4 ?

Sounds right but that does not mean that the 144000 are the only ones who are born again and under the new covenant etc.

"Jesus is equal to God", "the kingdoms of the earth dont get destroyed because they get 'absorbed' into Gods Kingdom", "Gods Kingdom is not a government"....just to name some

Yes I admit that Jesus is the Son of God with the same nature.
I did not say that the Kingdoms of the earth don't get destroyed if you read what I said.
God's Kingdom is the realm over which God reigns.
That is the Biblical description and the normal understanding of Kingdom.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus contiued saying:

Matt. 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John ...

You seem to have forgotten that part. John won't be king in heavens, but a subject on earth. He was not born again because he was not anointed in the 33 CE to be a brother of Jesus. Since he was not anointed with the spirit to inherit a heavenly place, he will be resucitated on earth in the Millennium ... like Daniel, like the angel told him:

Dan. 12:13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

Do you think Daniel will reign on heavens as well? Or do you believe what the angel told him?

Why do you say I have forgotten that part (Matt 11:12,13) I told you why those in the Kingdom, born of the Spirit, are greater than those born of just a woman.
But you seem to be adding to the scriptures by saying that John the Baptist and Daniel will be resurrected during the millenium. Where does the scripture say that?
And the scripture does not say that John or Daniel will not be in the Kingdom of God. Luke 13:28 suggests otherwise.
And the scripture does not say that John and Daniel will not ever go to heaven as far as I can see.
So why do you add all this stuff to the scriptures?
It is because that is what you have been taught that the scriptures teach, but when it comes to actually pointing out where the scriptures say those things, you cannot find anywhere.
These things come from the imagination of the Governing Body and are contrary to the scriptures.
The Governing Body is good at finding scriptures that they can twist and suggest that they mean things that they do not actually say. So you're happy and go away thinking you have your scriptural proof but then find out that it is no such thing.
So tell me what the angel told Daniel that makes you think he is going to be resurrected in the millenium?

 

[seekandfind]

I did not say that some Kingdoms get destroyed and consumed I said that some translations include the "consumed" part. So it may not necessarily mean that the Kingdoms completely disappear.

It says they all get destroyed. If youre saying that all the citizens of those governments might not get destroyed, I agree.

Sounds right but that does not mean that the 144000 are the only ones who are born again and under the new covenant etc.

The 144,000 are the only ones mentioned as being priests, kings, and judges. The rest of the resurrected will be humans on earth, citizens of Gods Kingdom. It would make no sense that everyone is a king or judge, etc.

 

[Brian2]

It says they all get destroyed. If youre saying that all the citizens of those governments might not get destroyed, I agree.

Well yes, the heads of many will be broken, but most of the people are not killed, otherwise the Kingdom of the earth would just be destroyed and would not become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.

The 144,000 are the only ones mentioned as being priests, kings, and judges. The rest of the resurrected will be humans on earth, citizens of Gods Kingdom. It would make no sense that everyone is a king or judge, etc.

All Christians are called a royal priesthood and priests at 1Peter 2:9, Rev 1:6. It is only the rules of the Watch Tower which say that these verses are not about most Christians, only about the 144000.
Doesn't it say that the apostles are to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Does the Bible say that the 144000 are kings and priests or is that another of the things that the WT claims it says. If the NT is for all Christians then also Rev 5:9-10 is for all Christians.

 

[Eli G]

...
All Christians are called a royal priesthood and priests at 1Peter 2:9, Rev 1:6. ...

Mmmh, I don't seem so.

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.

So, there is no need for the office of priest if there is not some imperfect and sinful human who benefits from that service. If all Christians were to live in heaven officiating as priests... who would be the humans benefiting from that service?

On the other hand, from the biblical point of view, the 144,000 who will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven will benefit a great crowd of other sheep on earth who will be perfected little by little during the Millennium of their reign.

Rev. 14:1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. (...) 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The leaders of Christendom have greatly confused the members of their religions into believing that they are all going to heaven... so they all want to believe that they are kings and that they are priests. Was it a priest king in Israel whoever he wanted?

 

[seekandfind]

Well yes, the heads of many will be broken, but most of the people are not killed, otherwise the Kingdom of the earth would just be destroyed and would not become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.



All Christians are called a royal priesthood and priests at 1Peter 2:9, Rev 1:6. It is only the rules of the Watch Tower which say that these verses are not about most Christians, only about the 144000.
Doesn't it say that the apostles are to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Does the Bible say that the 144000 are kings and priests or is that another of the things that the WT claims it says. If the NT is for all Christians then also Rev 5:9-10 is for all Christians.

The Kingdoms of the earth do get destroyed. I have no idea why you cant face that. You are like a broken record sharing an opiniin contrary to scripture.

The New Testament.
Like Jesus' teaching was for the Jews foremost and the nations 2nd much of the NT was for the 144,000 foremost and to Christians 2nd. There are things in the NT testament that apply to all Christians, most of which will be on the earth, and things that are only for the 144,000 who go to heaven.

Example: to the annointed..."and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel." Not all Christians will be judges- only those chosen to be- yet all Christians will benefit from these judges. Again, only those chosen will be such. The rest of Christians will live on earth as God originally purposed as Psalm and Jesus said 37:9; 29 "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth"...."The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." "The righteous will possess the earth" Mt 5:5

It makes no sense for all Christians to be the judges/kings/priests, nor does the bible teach that. Most Christians will be citizens of Gods Kingdom- living UNDER its rulership.

 

[Brian2]

Mmmh, I don't seem so.

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.

So, there is no need for the office of priest if there is not some imperfect and sinful human who benefits from that service. If all Christians were to live in heaven officiating as priests... who would be the humans benefiting from that service?

Your Hebrews 5 quote is about the Levitical priesthood. Jesus is the High Priest and there is no need for another.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Notice it is in the present tense and says what Christian priests do.
Hebrews 13:14For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. 15Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that confess His name.
Notice also in this quote what we offer as sacrifice.

I said nothing about living in heaven. That is the JW doctrine. I believe what the Bible says, that the New Jerusalem will come down to earth and God will dwell there with His people and Jesus will be there and be it's lamp, and so the 144000 also will be there.

On the other hand, from the biblical point of view, the 144,000 who will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven will benefit a great crowd of other sheep on earth who will be perfected little by little during the Millennium of their reign.

Rev. 14:1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. (...) 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

You started by giving the JW doctrine and not the Biblical pov. Then you give a quote from the Bible and the quote does not say the JW doctrine you gave.
All Christians are without blemish if our righteousness is given to us and is not that of our own doing.
If we endure to the end we have followed Jesus everywhere and are the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
There are people who get eternal life at the final judgement and have never had a faith in Jesus. (Matt 25) Why is it not them who are living in the nations and the believers in the New Jerusalem?
But the JW doctrine divides Christians into 2 groups and makes the NT mostly about the 144000 and says the rest are not in the New Covenant and are not born again of God and etc etc. This is based on the imagination of the Governing Body and the scriptures do not say this.

The leaders of Christendom have greatly confused the members of their religions into believing that they are all going to heaven... so they all want to believe that they are kings and that they are priests. Was it a priest king in Israel whoever he wanted?

JWs are confused about where God and Jesus will be.

 

[Brian2]

The Kingdoms of the earth do get destroyed. I have no idea why you cant face that. You are like a broken record sharing an opiniin contrary to scripture.

So you say that maybe not all the citizens of these kingdoms get destroyed but the kingdoms do. Then I agree with what you said and for some reason you can't see that I agree.

The New Testament.
Like Jesus' teaching was for the Jews foremost and the nations 2nd much of the NT was for the 144,000 foremost and to Christians 2nd. There are things in the NT testament that apply to all Christians, most of which will be on the earth, and things that are only for the 144,000 who go to heaven.

Yes I know the Governing Body fantasy of the NT not being for all Christians.

Example: to the annointed..."and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel." Not all Christians will be judges- only those chosen to be- yet all Christians will benefit from these judges. Again, only those chosen will be such. The rest of Christians will live on earth as God originally purposed as Psalm and Jesus said 37:9; 29 "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth"...."The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." "The righteous will possess the earth" Mt 5:5

It makes no sense for all Christians to be the judges/kings/priests, nor does the bible teach that. Most Christians will be citizens of Gods Kingdom- living UNDER its rulership.

All Christians will be in the Kingdom of God as it's citizens, and we will all have different functions. In the end everyone (whether they started off as Christians or not) will be in the KofG.

 

[seekandfind]

So you say that maybe not all the citizens of these kingdoms get destroyed but the kingdoms do. Then I agree with what you said and for some reason you can't see that I agree.

Except you didnt agree.
You keep implying the kingdoms dont get destroyed...Brian2: "otherwise the Kingdom of the earth would just be destroyed"....
I keep saying the kingdoms get destroyed which you havent agreed with once. You keep playing it off with "they get absorbed", "not completely destroyed", etc.

Yes I know the Governing Body fantasy of the NT not being for all Christians.

You believe all Christians will be judges, priests and/or kings? If so, over what?

All Christians will be in the Kingdom of God as it's citizens, and we will all have different functions. In the end everyone (whether they started off as Christians or not) will be in the KofG.

Not everyone will be in the Kingdom, only those that obey and do Gods will.

What are the "different functions"?

 

[Brian2]

Except you didnt agree.
You keep implying the kingdoms dont get destroyed...Brian2: "otherwise the Kingdom of the earth would just be destroyed"....
I keep saying the kingdoms get destroyed which you havent agreed with once. You keep playing it off with "they get absorbed", "not completely destroyed", etc.

OK, the kingdoms get destroyed and people that used to be in it are transferred into the Kingdom of God, unless you think that destruction includes the killing of all the people.

You believe all Christians will be judges, priests and/or kings? If so, over what?

I believe all Christians are priests now and declare God and His Kingdom.
Christians also seem to have a hand in judging the angels (1Cor 6:3).
Christians' rule will vary and it will probably depend on if they have been faithful in what has been given then in this life. (according to the parable of the talents)
There may be Christians who rule over all ex Buddhists who have made it into the Kingdom. Some might be in charge of icy pole distribution.

Not everyone will be in the Kingdom, only those that obey and do Gods will.

What are the "different functions"?

I'm not teaching universalism as Matt 25 shows that some do not get into the Kingdom.
But when it comes to functions you are asking me to guess at what the Kingdom of God will be like.
I'll leave that to the Watch Tower.