Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[rosends]

Really? Let me put it to you this way -- whether you accept it or not -- I have a cousin whose mother is not Jewish but the children were bar mitzvah'd because their father was Jewish, they went to a synagogue with a rabbi that accepted that the mother was not Jewish and so the child is "Jewish."

Even if that conformed to Jewish law, the children would not be "part Jewish."

 

[rosends]

Now, two points. You CAN be 'part Jewish' - in my case it was my great great grandfather who has his name chiseled on to synagogue wall.
The 'part' is biological part, not a religious part. Half the Cohens in the world are 'part Jewish' in that they have 'haplotype DNA' that takes them back to the line of Moses.

Second. Daniel said the temple and the city would be destroyed. Not profaned like with the Greeks or damaged like with the Babylonians. Totally destroyed. For nearly two thousand years. Punishment in the OT meant losing land, or freedom, or life. This 2,000 years suggests a serious punishment. If the Jew is correct that he is right and Christians are wrong, how do YOU explain the exile, destruction, pogroms and genocides of the Jewish people?

ps going to Israel soon, quite thrilled.

First point - you cannot be part Jewish. You can have Jewish ancestry but that doesn't make you at all Jewish. While there is sometimes a biological aspect to Jewish identity, it is not exclusive or taken partially.
For the second, the desecration, desolation and exile are all part of the sad prophecy of what was to befall the Jewish people. It is serious punishment and we work, daily to bring it to an end.

When you go, get falafel from Moshikos on Ben Yehuda street in Jerusalem.

 

[101G]

Irrelevant. None of this changes what was said in the Psalms I posted.

relevant, because GOD did make the change in priesthood. Psalms 110:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." ...... is this the Levitical priesthood? yes or no your answer please.

That is talking about the Logos. So what? None of this has anything to do with what we were discussing.

so what? do you see the implication here. if the Logos "MADE ALL THINGS", per John 1:3 that means, the Logos is God, per Isaiah 44:24 who MAD ALL THINGS".

Not true.....

then you said you don't care what hebrews said. and Romans, and so on, ok I see where you're coming from. so let's do this then, since you don't care what the NT Word of God say, tell us where in the Tanakh God commanded you Jews to build a Third Temple? book chapter and verse please.

101G.

 

[101G]

to all my Hebrews brothers, and friends.

as I asked our brother, dybmh, where in the Tanakh do God say build a third Temple? book chapter, and verse.

now if one doesn't care what the NT word of God say, tell us why you don't care what God said or didn't say in the Tanakh.

this is for all who want to build a third temple, just post book chapter and verse with the command from God to build a third temple.

101G will be waiting for your answer.

 

[rosends]

to all my Hebrews brothers, and friends.

as I asked our brother, dybmh, where in the Tanakh do God say build a third Temple? book chapter, and verse.

now if one doesn't care what the NT word of God say, tell us why you don't care what God said or didn't say in the Tanakh.

this is for all who want to build a third temple, just post book chapter and verse with the command from God to build a third temple.

101G will be waiting for your answer.

you misunderstand how Judaism works.

Mordechai Torczyner's WebShas - Topical Index to the Talmud: Ideology and Theology: Mashiach: The Third Temple

An index to the Babylonian Talmud, one of the core texts of Judaism. Jewish Ideology. Messianic Issues.

www.webshas.org

If you want to stick with the "book, chapter and verse" approach then you fail to find any mention of Jesus.
Now, if you don't care what the Talmud says, why would you care what the tanach says?

 

[101G]

you misunderstand how Judaism works.

Mordechai Torczyner's WebShas - Topical Index to the Talmud: Ideology and Theology: Mashiach: The Third Temple

An index to the Babylonian Talmud, one of the core texts of Judaism. Jewish Ideology. Messianic Issues.

www.webshas.org

If you want to stick with the "book, chapter and verse" approach then you fail to find any mention of Jesus.
Now, if you don't care what the Talmud says, why would you care what the tanach says?

so, we can take this as you have no command from God to build a third temple? thought so. ... so this means you're disobedient.

101G.

 

[rosends]

so, we can take this as you have no command from God to build a third temple? thought so. ... so this means you're disobedient.

101G.

No, you would be taking it wrong. It just means you are ignorant.

 

[101G]

No, you would be taking it wrong. It just means you are ignorant.

you can't keep one command of God. least 10... lol, lol, lol, Oh dear. now, who told you to build a third temple?..... some man?

101G

 

[101G]

let's see, your Isaiah 53 has been taken away, and you have no command from God to build a temple. and the priesthood changed, and the old covenant is no more. you're in a mess, trying to please men instead of God.

101G.

 

[rosends]

you can't keep one command of God. least 10... lol, lol, lol, Oh dear. now, who told you to build a third temple?..... some man?

101G

You are very confused. If you say we have NOT been commanded, then because we haven't built one, we aren't disobedient. Additionally, you don't understand the sources and the actual expectation about what will happen.

If you wish to read up on this and use proper terminology, you can start with this (oversimplified but it is a start)

What's the earliest source for the Third Temple?

I know Yechezkel writes about a Temple which is generally considered to be the Third. Is this explicitly identified as a Third Temple anywhere there? Otherwise, what's the earliest source that expl...

judaism.stackexchange.com

 

[dybmh]

as I asked our brother, dybmh, where in the Tanakh do God say build a third Temple? book chapter, and verse.

Apologies, I must have missed that question.

Isaiah has it: Chapter 2:2-3

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.​

​

And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for from Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.​

 

[dybmh]

The circumcision would be so that Timothy would be able to mix with the Jews that Paul was mixing with.

Acts 16:4

4As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey​

​

They delivered decisions reached by the elders of Jerusalem. That means they were preaching Jewish law. If not, then Paul becomes a liar later when he is testifying before the Sanhedrin.

Knowing God is not a matter of having the right beliefs.

Having the law written on one's heart is a matter of knowing what God wants.

And it does not matter.

Of course it does. The Psalm is 7 verses long. Skipping one of the verses is foolish.

It does not matter. If God accepts it, it is effective.

It DOES matter if a person is counting on it to atone for sin, but it doesn't.

If your standards go beyond the text then they become low standards.

I'm not going beyond the text. I'm going literally by the text.

I don't see how Israel fulfilled to isolated parts of the prophecy.

That's because the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.

I can see that one Israelite could fulfill those parts and so Israel has fulfilled the prophecy through this one person.

Verse 7 has not been fulfilled.

 

[101G]

You are very confused. If you say we have NOT been commanded, then because we haven't built one, we aren't disobedient. Additionally, you don't understand the sources and the actual expectation about what will happen.

If you wish to read up on this and use proper terminology, you can start with this (oversimplified but it is a start)

What's the earliest source for the Third Temple?

I know Yechezkel writes about a Temple which is generally considered to be the Third. Is this explicitly identified as a Third Temple anywhere there? Otherwise, what's the earliest source that expl...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Confused? you have no authority to build a third temple. not from God. so you're in disobedience. ... (smile) ..... LOL, LOL, LOL, as Gamalie said "if it's not of God it will not stand". .... Oop's

101G.

 

[rosends]

Confused? you have no authority to build a third temple. not from God. so you're in disobedience. ... (smile) ..... LOL, LOL, LOL, as Gamalie said "if it's not of God it will not stand". .... Oop's

101G.

You are confused as you don't understand God's commands and expectations. And that supposed quote is not from God so it will not stand.

 

[dybmh]

If you say so.

Which part of it doesn't make sense with Israel as the suffering servant?

Psalm 89:44 You have put an end to his splendor
and cast his throne to the ground.
45 You have cut short the days of his youth;
you have covered him with a mantle of shame.

It doesn't mean he was killed.

David's throne is not mentioned in Psalm 89 specifically, but this dude is God's firstborn, higher or the highest king of the earth. He is a king and was killed as a young man by the Jews. His is at least sitting on the throne of David as the one appointed God's firstborn.

Nah. That's your desire.

However you have made a mistake and when I said And sitting on the throne of David forever is not an important detail to you I suppose. If you go back you will see that I was referring to the child of Isa 9 who sits on the throne of David forever. (see the bottom of post 674)

Sure it's important in Isa 9. But so is having the government on his shoulders.

The Messiah of Psalm 2 does some hard core ruling and judging with his sceptre of iron and this is reflected in Psalm 89 with the one sitting on the right hand of God doing the judging and crushing heads.

And since Jesus didn't do any of those things...

(Your way to understand the Psalm makes it confusing as to who is sitting at the right hand of whom.)

And the Christian way of understanding it is false.

Why do you think that Melchizedek made Abraham into a priest? That sounds like something made up to make Psalm 89 into something about Abraham.

Read Gen 14, everything needed is there. Here's where Abraham ( Abram ) is made into a priest. There's a ritual happening here. Bread and wine... Malchi-tzedek blesses Abraham making him a priest. Then Abraham raises his hand, makes an oath using literally the same language, and accepts it. That's what happens when someone is ordained. The official says, "Repeat after me..." Malchi-tzedek ordains Abraham into the priesthood.

​

And Melchizedek king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the most high God.​

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth;​

And blessed be God the Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he gave him a tenth of all.​

And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself.​

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,​

Now. There is a tithe being passed here, and Galatians?/Hebrews? ( I can't remember ) attempts to flip it around. The NIV goes so far as to change the text, change scripture, to flip-flop who is giving the tithe to whom. That's wrong. Malchi-tzedek is giving a 10th of the bread and wine to Abraham. It's a ritual. This is apparent by looking at the order of who is speaking and who is being spoken to. If you look back a verse Malchi-tzedek speaking to Abraham "He [ Malchi-tzedek ] blessed him [ Abraham ]". Malchi-tzedek first, Abraham second. Then this is consistently followed by "and he [ Malchi-tzedek ] gave him [ Abraham ] a tenth of all."

 

[101G]

Apologies, I must have missed that question.

Isaiah has it: Chapter 2:2-3

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.​

​

And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for from Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.​

LOL, LOL, LOL, ..... LOL, nice try, HOUSE, not TEMPLE,
HOUSE: H1004 בַּיִת bayith (bah'-yith) n-m.
1. a house (in the greatest variation of applications, especially family, etc.).
2. (transliterated) Beth (used in names of places).
[probably from H1129 abbreviated]
KJV: court, daughter, door, + dungeon, family, + forth of, X great as would contain, hangings, home(born), (winter)house(-hold), inside(-ward), palace, place, + prison, + steward, + tablet, temple, web, + within(-out).
Root(s): H1129

now let's see this HOUSE of God. Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" Ephesians 2:22 "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Now let's this temple of God, that he HOUSE IN, 1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" DID YOU KNOW THAT? ... NO,

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (you didn't KNOW that either), 1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (smile), LOL, LOL, LOL, nice try, as the saying goes, "what will you do for a Klondike bar". .

now, give book chapter, and verse for that third temple.

101GT/

 

[101G]

You are confused as you don't understand God's commands and expectations. And that supposed quote is not from God so it will not stand.

need a Klondike bar".
now that book chapter and verse for that third temple....... YIKES!

101G.

 

[101G]

@dybmh, I'm surprise of U. Stop before U embarrass yourself any further. just some friendly advice.

101G.

 

[101G]

You are confused as you don't understand God's commands and. And that supposed quote is not from God so it will not stand.

expectations? ok, show in your Tanakh where God expect a third Temple to be built

101G.

 

[dybmh]

LOL, LOL, LOL, ..... LOL, nice try, HOUSE, not TEMPLE,
HOUSE: H1004 בַּיִת bayith (bah'-yith) n-m.
1. a house (in the greatest variation of applications, especially family, etc.).
2. (transliterated) Beth (used in names of places).
[probably from H1129 abbreviated]
KJV: court, daughter, door, + dungeon, family, + forth of, X great as would contain, hangings, home(born), (winter)house(-hold), inside(-ward), palace, place, + prison, + steward, + tablet, temple, web, + within(-out).
Root(s): H1129

now let's see this HOUSE of God. Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" Ephesians 2:22 "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Now let's this temple of God, that he HOUSE IN, 1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" DID YOU KNOW THAT? ... NO,

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (you didn't KNOW that either), 1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (smile), LOL, LOL, LOL, nice try, as the saying goes, "what will you do for a Klondike bar". .

now, give book chapter, and verse for that third temple.

101GT/

The house of the Lord, the house of God, is not a normal house. It is the temple. Here's a good example making the distinction and defining the term.

2 Samuel 12:20

Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his garment, and came to the house of the Lord, and bowed down; then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he ate.​