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Alternative to Hell

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe this section is about the Rapture:

Mat. 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I used to think this just meant outside the New Jerusalem but the problem wth that is that the person could return to earth. For God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell then He would have to cast the person into a far off galaxy where the person would have very high odds against finding the right star to return to.

Of course that is only available to those who respond to the angels call at the last trumpet but do not have a relationship with Jesus.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I believe this section is about the Rapture:

Mat. 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I used to think this just meant outside the New Jerusalem but the problem wth that is that the person could return to earth. For God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell then He would have to cast the person into a far off galaxy where the person would have very high odds against finding the right star to return to.

Of course that is only available to those who respond to the angels call at the last trumpet but do not have a relationship with Jesus.
Why must the nonphysical soul exist in a physical location within spacetime?

Why is that the only way for God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell? Why is God unable to obliterate the soul? Or cause it to be born into another body until it gets it right?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why must the nonphysical soul exist in a physical location within spacetime?

Why is that the only way for God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell? Why is God unable to obliterate the soul? Or cause it to be born into another body until it gets it right?
I believe it does not if it is in Heaven but that is not usually going to happen for most people. So that only leaves space/time as the alternative.

I would like to believe there is another way but don't know of one and just realized this one.

I believe He is able but unwilling.

I believe that is our current temporal situation and will also still be with us for a thousand years after the Kingdom of God comes but after that there will no longer be any births.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I believe it does not if it is in Heaven but that is not usually going to happen for most people. So that only leaves space/time as the alternative.

I would like to believe there is another way but don't know of one and just realized this one.

I believe He is able but unwilling.

I believe that is our current temporal situation and will also still be with us for a thousand years after the Kingdom of God comes but after that there will no longer be any births.
Do you think these souls would find it preferable to exist beyond the stars? And if not, why does God not allow them into the kingdom?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Do you think these souls would find it preferable to exist beyond the stars? And if not, why does God not allow them into the kingdom?
I believe there is a homing instinct that causes people to be unhappy if they are not in a familiar place but there is no reason why a spirit could not find a humanoid to inhabit somewhere else in the universe but it just won't feel like home.

The Kingdom is there for people who want to be there and that first takes a belief that they can or should be there. The people who are cast out did not choose to fill the requirements to be there.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I believe there is a homing instinct that causes people to be unhappy if they are not in a familiar place but there is no reason why a spirit could not find a humanoid to inhabit somewhere else in the universe but it just won't feel like home.

The Kingdom is there for people who want to be there and that first takes a belief that they can or should be there. The people who are cast out did not choose to fill the requirements to be there.
Why should the belief come first to want to be there? For example I would want to be in Hogwarts but I don’t believe such a place exists due to the lack of evidence. Do you think it is fair that God would cast someone far away into the universe far from their home because they did not believe such a kingdom would exist?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why should the belief come first to want to be there? For example I would want to be in Hogwarts but I don’t believe such a place exists due to the lack of evidence. Do you think it is fair that God would cast someone far away into the universe far from their home because they did not believe such a kingdom would exist?
I believe it is fair because a person will believe what he wishes to believe. If it isn't what he wants it is fair that he won't get it. For instance I would like to win the lottery. If I believe I can't win then I won't play and it is quite fair that I don't win the lottery.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I believe it is fair because a person will believe what he wishes to believe. If it isn't what he wants it is fair that he won't get it. For instance I would like to win the lottery. If I believe I can't win then I won't play and it is quite fair that I don't win the lottery.
But we do know there is a chance at winning the lottery, as people have been proven to win it. There is no proof that people have been to heaven or are accepted into the kingdom of God.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe this section is about the Rapture:

Mat. 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I used to think this just meant outside the New Jerusalem but the problem wth that is that the person could return to earth. For God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell then He would have to cast the person into a far off galaxy where the person would have very high odds against finding the right star to return to.

Of course that is only available to those who respond to the angels call at the last trumpet but do not have a relationship with Jesus.
I believe this is a load of post hoc rationalisation.
In my opinion.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
But we do know there is a chance at winning the lottery, as people have been proven to win it. There is no proof that people have been to heaven or are accepted into the kingdom of God.
True I believe all we have is God's word and that should be good enough.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I do not see the reasoning. I believe you need to post some reasoning behind your statement or you are just making statements you can't back up.
It is post-hoc rationalisation because you are looking outside the texts at relatively modern knowledge to come to your conclusion.

The gospel writers explain nothing of galaxies and the vast expanse of the universe, an other galaxy was first observed by
Source: Timeline of knowledge about galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and large-scale structure - Wikipedia

By comparison consider John 8:12
'When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”'(NIV translation)

Here the gospel writers have metaphorically likened Jesus and life to light.

So a reasonable theological conclusion based on the gospels is that outer darkness refers to being deprived of Jesus and thereby eternal life.

By comparison interpreting outer darkness to refer to other galaxies is not only post hoc rationalisation in that it refers to knowledge the Gospel writers did not demonstrate, it is also incoherent since in "other galaxies" there will be other stars to give light, hence no need for some universe traversing soul to return to earth to get light as there are stars in other galaxies which are suitable.

Good to know that you have no idea how to interpret scripture without coming to what I believe are demonstrably false conclusions though.

In my opinion.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is post-hoc rationalisation because you are looking outside the texts at relatively modern knowledge to come to your conclusion.

The gospel writers explain nothing of galaxies and the vast expanse of the universe, an other galaxy was first observed by
Source: Timeline of knowledge about galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and large-scale structure - Wikipedia

By comparison consider John 8:12
'When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”'(NIV translation)

Here the gospel writers have metaphorically likened Jesus and life to light.

So a reasonable theological conclusion based on the gospels is that outer darkness refers to being deprived of Jesus and thereby eternal life.

By comparison interpreting outer darkness to refer to other galaxies is not only post hoc rationalisation in that it refers to knowledge the Gospel writers did not demonstrate, it is also incoherent since in "other galaxies" there will be other stars to give light, hence no need for some universe traversing soul to return to earth to get light as there are stars in other galaxies which are suitable.

Good to know that you have no idea how to interpret scripture without coming to what I believe are demonstrably false conclusions though.

In my opinion.
I believe current knowledge can shed light on scripture.

The problem with saying it is ad hoc is that it is God speaking and He exists through all of time.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe current knowledge can shed light on scripture.

The problem with saying it is ad hoc is that it is God speaking and He exists through all of time.
But in my opinion you are not listening to what your "God" actually said, nor are you assessing the knowledge your "God" demonstrated.

And I believe I have demonstrated the utter illogic of your interpretation which I note you didn't address.

This leaves the door open for a man who demonstrates no knowledge to be assumed by you to be a God, in which case He must be made to be right forcing the afterfacts to fit regardless of how badly they don't fit.

It is far more parsimonious in my view to simply see the Bible as written and interpreted by humans than to make the glaring errors of logic that you have made.

In my opinion.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
But in my opinion you are not listening to what your "God" actually said, nor are you assessing the knowledge your "God" demonstrated.

And I believe I have demonstrated the utter illogic of your interpretation which I note you didn't address.

This leaves the door open for a man who demonstrates no knowledge to be assumed by you to be a God, in which case He must be made to be right forcing the afterfacts to fit regardless of how badly they don't fit.

It is far more parsimonious in my view to simply see the Bible as written and interpreted by humans than to make the glaring errors of logic that you have made.

In my opinion.
How would you know that. Do you have the gift of discernment of spirits? I believe I do.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I believe this section is about the Rapture:

Mat. 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I used to think this just meant outside the New Jerusalem but the problem wth that is that the person could return to earth. For God to truly get rid of a person other than sending him to Hell then He would have to cast the person into a far off galaxy where the person would have very high odds against finding the right star to return to.

Of course that is only available to those who respond to the angels call at the last trumpet but do not have a relationship with Jesus.
I think the saved will resurrect on the mansion worlds while the unsaved are annihilated. In the next life people will realize how much time they wasted trusting and trying to make sense of the Bible.
 
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