What exactly is Islamophobia?

[stevecanuck]

Here is a whole slew of translations of that last verse... not a single one even comes close to this.

Ayah al-Fatihah (The Opening) 1:7

www.islamawakened.com

Not only that, but Allah is the most merciful, they're repeating that 5 times a day too. So, even if the imagined version of verse 7 is repeated, they are also repeating Allah is the most merciful. And somehow the imagined verse 7 is being ingrained in their brain, but Allah is most merciful is not?

Are you confusing "parsimonious" with a rapid onset split-personality disorder between verse 1 and verse 7?

Is this mercy? Do you have a different meaning for it?

6:70 - For them will be a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment because they used to disbelieve.
10:40 - But those who disbelieved will have a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment for what they used to deny.
37:67 - Then indeed, they will have after it a mixture of scalding water.
38:57 - This - so let them taste it - is scalding water and [foul] purulence.
40:72 - In boiling water; then in the Fire they will be filled [with flame].
44:46 - Like the boiling of scalding water.
47:15 - those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines.
88:5 - They will be given drink from a boiling spring.

They can claim that Allah is merciful a million times if they want to, but how do they explain that using boiling water and "severing the intestines" of people whose only crime is to choose to not be a Muslim is "merciful".

 

[Augustus]

There you go. Just as it says several times in the Qur'an.

Thank you for once again proving you simply want to attack a straw Islam of your own creation rather than the religion as practiced by Muslims.

If you don’t think this is accurate, what % of Muslims do you think consider Islam to be nothing more than a literal reading of the Quranic text interpreted in isolation?

Rounded off to the nearest %, I’d say it’s zero.

 

[Augustus]

That brings up an absurdity of Islamic belief - that Allah spent 22 years and 6,236 verses trying to get his point across, but did such a poor job of it that an entire industry of scholarship had to be established to try to figure just what he was trying to say.

So? How you think Muslims should practice Islam is pretty much irrelevant to anything that happens in the real world.

Again you are admitting you are more interested in your straw Islam than what Muslims believe.

The only thing I'm taking as fact in this discussion is that the Qur'an was created for the purpose of creating and defining Islam.

A premise that is debatable

So? That doesn't change the fact that they were never intended to be. If what you're saying is true, then Islam was not complete until long after Mohamed's death.

How do you know?

The Quran says:

Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example for whoever has hope in Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah often.

Are you doubting the Qur'an itself? Even if Mohamed had exactly zero to do with it, the very essence of being a Muslim is to believe he did. Whatever point you think you're making is at best moot, and a worst a disingenuous distraction.

It’s not a “disingenuous distraction” to point out the role of Sunnah in defining Islam and interpreting the Quran.

Unless of course one is only interested in attacking an imaginary straw Islam of his own creation that bears no relation to history or Islamic theology.

If I ever talk about orthodox Sunni Islam, feel free to mention that.

Why would anyone want to understand what Muslims actually believe instead of just making up whatever best suits their personal agenda?

So? Nothing that anyone claims can change the fact that the Qur'an says that it completely, definitively, and finally establishes the truth regarding religion. Anything that comes afterwards is by definition an illegal addition to the word of Allah.

Unfortunately Sheikh Steve, 99.9% of Muslims disagree with you so your opinion on how they should practice their religion is pretty irrelevant when looking at the Islams that actually exist outside of your imagination.

Also you consistently refer to them to support your polemics whenever it is convenient to do so (although you still seem to think they are secular history)

So they were joined by mercenaries. Big whoop. It only makes sense that anyone who was useful to their goal of conquest and pillage would be welcomed.

Historical evidence that suggests your straw Islam has equally little to do with historical reality as it does with what Muslims actually believe.

The ad hom is always the refuge of the disingenuous

Your knowledge of fallacies seems on a par with your knowledge of Islam.

Explaining why you are wrong with evidence is not an “ad hom”.

Explaining why someone sems to be prejudiced is not an ad hom.

Explaining why someone who consistently confuses theology and fact and is resistant to becoming better informed in the issue is not intellectually honest is not an ad hom.

 

[dybmh]

Is this mercy? Do you have a different meaning for it?

6:70 - For them will be a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment because they used to disbelieve.
10:40 - But those who disbelieved will have a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment for what they used to deny.
37:67 - Then indeed, they will have after it a mixture of scalding water.
38:57 - This - so let them taste it - is scalding water and [foul] purulence.
40:72 - In boiling water; then in the Fire they will be filled [with flame].
44:46 - Like the boiling of scalding water.
47:15 - those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines.
88:5 - They will be given drink from a boiling spring.

They can claim that Allah is merciful a million times if they want to, but how do they explain that using boiling water and "severing the intestines" of people whose only crime is to choose to not be a Muslim is "merciful".

I have assigned numbers 1-8 to the verses above and used a random number generator to choose a verse to discuss.




"44:46 - Like the boiling of scalding water."

This is a day of sorting where the wicked have been given an opportunity to accept Allah's mercy but have refused it. 44:40-42.
There is reward for the righteous. 44:51-57
Accepting Allah is easy; receiving the reward is easy. 44:58

 

[icehorse]

Here is a whole slew of translations of that last verse... not a single one even comes close to this.

Yup, I think my version is simpler and consistent with the versions you provided.

Not only that, but Allah is the most merciful, they're repeating that 5 times a day too. So, even if the imagined version of verse 7 is repeated, they are also repeating Allah is the most merciful. And somehow the imagined verse 7 is being ingrained in their brain, but Allah is most merciful is not?

Are you confusing "parsimonious" with a rapid onset split-personality disorder between verse 1 and verse 7?

The message that Allah is merciful does indeed positively litter the book. But that message is another one that causes extreme cognitive dissonance, because the depiction of Allah in the book shows him to anything BUT merciful. But this is a conversation perhaps for a different thread?

In addition, as I'm sure you know, admonitions against non-believers occur hundreds and hundreds of times in the book. I used the first Surah as simply the first of these hundreds of repetitions.

Finally, the last sentence of yours that I quoted here struck me as ambiguous, but likely snarky. Just curious if snark was intended, and if so, why?

 

[icehorse]

Thank you for once again proving you simply want to attack a straw Islam of your own creation rather than the religion as practiced by Muslims.

If you don’t think this is accurate, what % of Muslims do you think consider Islam to be nothing more than a literal reading of the Quranic text interpreted in isolation?

Rounded off to the nearest %, I’d say it’s zero.

Sorry to jump in here, but I have a related question: Do you think there are any beliefs at all that all Muslims share? I keep thinking there are at least two...

 

[Augustus]

Sorry to jump in here, but I have a related question: Do you think there are any beliefs at all that all Muslims share? I keep thinking there are at least two...

Not all, but for the vast majority:

The Quran is the word of God and we should follow its directions along with the example of Muhammad as interpreted by learned scholars.

I'm not sure how to square these two sentences?

Have you ever sent money to a Nigerian prince?

Many people make a living from sending emails asking folk to send money to the Nigerian prince in exchange for riches.

I’m sure you can square those sentences.

I think the context that you're discussing is a lot less charged than the one I'm discussing.

It's estimated that about half the world's Muslims repeat the first Surah of the Quran five times a day as part of their daily prayers. Call it a billion people to keep the math easy. The last line of Surah 1 reads - parsimoniously - "allah is forever mad at non-believers".

Now for a religious person, prayers are important and emotional. So that message, repeated FIVE BILLION TIMES A DAY in an emotional context, is fomenting serious subconscious divisiveness throughout the

Things that familiar have already been rationalised in one way or the other.

I don’t think each repetition adds something new.

 

[stevecanuck]

I have assigned numbers 1-8 to the verses above and used a random number generator to choose a verse to discuss.

View attachment 73588


"44:46 - Like the boiling of scalding water."

This is a day of sorting where the wicked have been given an opportunity to accept Allah's mercy but have refused it. 44:40-42.
There is reward for the righteous. 44:51-57
Accepting Allah is easy; receiving the reward is easy. 44:58

Do you even realize that terms like "the wicked" are used throughout the Qur'an to describe unbelievers?

 

[icehorse]

The Quran is the word of God and we should follow its directions along with the example of Muhammad as interpreted by learned scholars.

It's your word "interpreted" that I think summarizes at least one point of disagreement. The mind can interpret, the brain is far more literal, especially when assaulted with propaganda.

Things that familiar have already been rationalised in one way or the other.

I don’t think each repetition adds something new.

Again, rationalization is a product of the mind, not so much the brain.

Repetition reinforces.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's your word "interpreted" that I think summarizes at least one point of disagreement. The mind can interpret, the brain is far more literal, especially when assaulted with propaganda.



Again, rationalization is a product of the mind, not so much the brain.

Repetition reinforces.

Weird theory you have there. It is in effect metaphysical/ontological dualism.

 

[stevecanuck]

The text of the Quran is not and never has been “Islam”

Do you agree with the claim that the Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of creating and defining Islam (as the Qur'an says both explicitly and implicitly many times)?

If not, then what is the role of the Qur'an?

 

[stevecanuck]

So? How you think Muslims should practice Islam is pretty much irrelevant to anything that happens in the real world.

The non-sequitur is one of your main 'weapons'. How in anyone's definition of linearity does this follow from, "That brings up an absurdity of Islamic belief - that Allah spent 22 years and 6,236 verses trying to get his point across, but did such a poor job of it that an entire industry of scholarship had to be established to try to figure out just what he was trying to say."?

Again you are admitting you are more interested in your straw Islam than what Muslims believe.

Again, you are admitting you are more interested in your straw stevecanuck than what I say.

 

[Augustus]

Do you agree with the claim that the Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of creating and defining Islam (as the Qur'an says both explicitly and implicitly many times)?

If not, then what is the role of the Qur'an?

For almost all Muslims, the Quran and the example of Muhammad are what define Islam.

That’s a simple fact.

In terms of history, I don’t think Islam existed until after Muhammad died. A bit how like Christianity didn’t really exist at the time if Jesus.

Apocalyptic prophets expecting the eschaton don’t start new confessional identities, they are reformers and warners within traditions.

The new religion comes later and it wasn’t till later people writing stuff down fully.

 

[Augustus]

Again, you are admitting you are more interested in your straw stevecanuck than what I say.

No you are just not astute or well informed enough to realise your many errors.

Can lead a horse to water…

The non-sequitur is one of your main 'weapons'. How in anyone's definition of linearity does this follow from, "That brings up an absurdity of Islamic belief - that Allah spent 22 years and 6,236 verses trying to get his point across, but did such a poor job of it that an entire industry of scholarship had to be established to try to figure out just what he was trying to say."?

Obviously, for anyone other than Muslims, that isn’t the true history of how Islam began.

Religious formation is messy and iterative, they don’t emerge fully formed out of a bottle.

So you can look at what Muslims believe or what evidence suggests actually happened.

Your imaginary Islam rejects secular historical scholarship and is simply your personal take on what you think Muslims should believe based on cherry picking and your own fictional addictions that better conform with your prejudices.

To me it seems pointless to critique a figment of your own imagination rather than the real world religion.

 

[dybmh]

Do you even realize that terms like "the wicked" are used throughout the Qur'an to describe unbelievers?

Of course! If Allah has brought clear proofs and makes it easy, that is merciful. Those who deny in spite of this are called wicked. We're talking about someone who is like a science denier but to the nth degree. Chapter 44 is saying, when the day of judgement comes, the truth of it will hit them in the face like boiling water.

Now, what's "good" about this?

First Allah is going to take care of the proof. The Muslims don't really need to do anything. For a religious zealot, this is a huge burden off of them. There is no compulsion in religion.

Second, the existence of the wicked is itself a proof for the muslim of the truth of the Quran and that Muhammad is a messenger from Allah. So Allah is the most merciful, making it easy to believe by bringing clear proofs and even the wicked become part of this process.

 

[stevecanuck]

Of course! If Allah has brought clear proofs and makes it easy, that is merciful. Those who deny in spite of this are called wicked. We're talking about someone who is like a science denier but to the nth degree. Chapter 44 is saying, when the day of judgement comes, the truth of it will hit them in the face like boiling water.

Now, what's "good" about this?

First Allah is going to take care of the proof. The Muslims don't really need to do anything. For a religious zealot, this is a huge burden off of them. There is no compulsion in religion.

Second, the existence of the wicked is itself a proof for the muslim of the truth of the Quran and that Muhammad is a messenger from Allah. So Allah is the most merciful, making it easy to believe by bringing clear proofs and even the wicked become part of this process.

First, if Allah signs are so clear and easy, why is anything else needed? Why does there have to be hadiths, tafsirs, etc. to help people understand how these signs are to be applied? It makes no sense.

Second, I'm very happy to see your take on what "no compulsion in religion" means. Most people twist it into 'proof' that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Third, I asked if we have different definitions of what mercy means. It appears we do. Any god that would torture me for eternity just because I don't take the word of an Arab merchant who lived 1400 years ago in no way qualifies to be called merciful.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

There are currently 189 jihad organisations spreading the peace and love of Islam. When Christians and Jews do the same I'll read the bible and try to figure out how works.

There are certainly Christian terror groups, for instance: Army of God (terrorist organization) - Wikipedia

Many of the White Supremacy groups here in the US have Christian nationalism as their basis.

 

[stevecanuck]

For almost all Muslims, the Quran and the example of Muhammad are what define Islam. That's a simple fact.

The Qur'an is the definition - Mohamed is the example of how to apply said definition.

In terms of history, I don’t think Islam existed until after Muhammad died. A bit how like Christianity didn’t really exist at the time if Jesus.

Islam existed in full the day the last 'revelation' was made. The Qur'an says so explicitly in 5:3.

The bible didn't exist for the purpose of creating Christianity, it took a counsel to do that 3 centuries later, so we agree on that.

Apocalyptic prophets expecting the eschaton don’t start new confessional identities, they are reformers and warners within traditions.

The new religion comes later and it wasn’t till later people writing stuff down fully.

Again - "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."

How can it be "perfected" and "completed" yet still in the making?

 

[dybmh]

First, if Allah signs are so clear and easy, why is anything else needed? Why does there have to be hadiths, tafsirs, etc. to help people understand how these signs are to be applied? It makes no sense.

Maybe the Hadiths and commentary isn't needed for belief in Allah, Quran, and Muhammad?

Second, I'm very happy to see your take on what "no compulsion in religion" means. Most people twist it into 'proof' that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Thank you. Perhaps it's still peaceful if the religious zealot is encouraged to leave it to Allah when it comes to unbelievers. People who break treaties on the other hand... get struck with the edge of a sword. As they say, no justice, no peace. Know justice, know peace.

Third, I asked if we have different definitions of what mercy means. It appears we do. Any god that would torture me for eternity just because I don't take the word of an Arab merchant who lived 1400 years ago in no way qualifies to be called merciful.

Have you been provided clear proofs? Are you like a science denier on steriods? Also, I think the worst of the worst is reserved for hypocrits. You don't seem to be a hypocrit to me. You don't seem like a denier to me either. Maybe the Quran isn't talking about you. Maybe the Quran is talking about me?

Maybe I can ask in this way... do you believe the unseen?

 

[stevecanuck]

Maybe the Hadiths and commentary isn't needed for belief in Allah, Quran, and Muhammad?

Then countless people have devoted their lives and careers to something that is not needed. Again - makes no sense.

Thank you. Perhaps it's still peaceful if the religious zealot is encouraged to leave it to Allah when it comes to unbelievers. People who break treaties on the other hand... get struck with the edge of a sword. As they say, no justice, no peace. Know justice, know peace.

According to verse 9:111, the zealots have been given a job to do by Allah. In exchange for a spot in heaven they are required to "fight in the cause of Allah, kill and be killed".

Have you been provided clear proofs? Are you like a science denier on steriods? Also, I think the worst of the worst is reserved for hypocrits. You don't seem to be a hypocrit to me. You don't seem like a denier to me either. Maybe the Quran isn't talking about you. Maybe the Quran is talking about me?

Maybe I can ask in this way... do you believe the unseen?

I have no superstitious/religious beliefs.