Transgender athlete

[Augustus]

One wants as fair of a competition as possible. But when push comes to shove, as long as there are no safety issues, they have gone with as open a competition as possible.

Whatever stance they take it would be better if they were honest about their preferences.

The choice is to prioritise fairness or inclusion, and they shouldn’t pretend they can achieve both.

Some sports have already stated they prioritise safety over inclusion.

Other organisations seem to want to avoid stating how they arrived at their decisions and hide behind ambiguities.

The problems of fairness will be worked out in time

What do you think might happen in this regard?

Imo it’s pretty well established that in any sport that utilises strength or speed that significant advantages remain for many years, and probably

Top athletes are separated by fractions of a percent between winning and being in the middle of the pack.

Male advantage ranges from 10-30% in many sports.

Lia Thomas went from being a top 500 ranked swimmer to dominant wins.

Other than understanding quite how much the advantage is (and this may be very difficult if not impossible to work out any time soon), not sure what needs to be worked out.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Basketball Victoria is facing an issue in this area currently. At the NBL1 level (ie. second-highest level of basketball in Australia) a transgender athlete has applied to participate with the Kilsyth Cobras.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/basketball/basketball-australia-takes-over-process-to-determine-whether-transgender-player-can-play/news-story/fe11fcfb755bcf238f1d165780b43e97

Without wading back through ground already covered, I thought the following practical points might be interesting to any discussing this issue....

1) Basketball Victoria has a policy on the issue, but basically it boils down to the following;
- Where an athlete is applying to play in a community level competition, they should be treated based on their gender choice, and graded based on their skill level. In other words, there is no restriction to a transgender athlete participating in a female competition at these levels. To be clear (it took me some research to confirm this) that allows transgender athletes freedom to compete based on their nominated gender at all levels of competition upto NBL1 and NBL/WNBL (equivalent in America would be G-League and NBA). High level club representation is entirely available, that being the case. I'm over simplifying slightly, due to tournament rules, etc, but that's the gist of it.

- Where an athlete is trying to compete at the sub-elite and elite levels (NBL1 and NBL/WNBL, which are effectively semi-pro and pro) and is 15 or older, there is the following statement ; '6.2 Basketball Victoria is working to establish appropriate Eligibility Criteria, determination, monitoring and dispute resolution for Elite and Sub-Elite Basketball. In the interim, matters will be determined on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the IOC, FIBA, or other applicable governing body criteria.'

In other words...we don't know what to do. Fair enough, it's a complicated issue in some ways.

2) In this particular case, it has been announced that Basketball Australia will take over determining eligibility, despite the application being to the highest level state competition, and therefore in Basketball Victoria's jurisdiction. So even if Basketball Victoria DID have clear eligibility criteria, I'm not sure it would matter.

Source : https://www.basketballvictoria.com.au/cdn/fy7f4fune5ck4sss
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It's worth noting, I feel quite sorry for the athlete in question in this case. She has every right to apply, and there is a distinct lack of clarity on whether she is eligible or not. The process is not defined at all (which...again...I do understand) leaving it highly susceptible to bias, the appearance of bias, and for a kangaroo court style decision.
I suspect this player will be made eligible. Female basketball has a much stronger advocacy for LGBTQIA+ rights than most mens sports, and several high profile players within the league have publically welcomed her in.

 

[Kfox]

That is why I am not clutching at my pearls quite yet when it comes to transgender issues and sport. In fact I can understand why the NCAA has only a one year standard for hormone blocking treatment right now to qualify as a transwoman. The NCAA is supposed to be amateur and participation is more important than the competition. One wants as fair of a competition as possible. But when push comes to shove, as long as there are no safety issues, they have gone with as open a competition as possible.

The problems of fairness will be worked out in time. I am not for punishing all trans people until they are worked out. In fact it is almost impossible to work out those issues if the competitions are not open to trans people.

Why not just have the trans men play with on the women's team, and trans women play on the men's teams?

 

[PureX]

I coach female basketball. Are you suggesting we split tall players from short and put them in separate competitions?

I am suggesting that there are female players that can easily compete with male players regardless of genitalia or genetic dispositions. And it's time we grew up and faced that fact, and stop pretending that gender alone determines ability. It's time to designate competitors by some other criteria. And in basketball height will likely be a factor. As even the "short" players in that sport are taller than most other people. But as anyone might enjoy playing that sport, it can still be open to all via organizing different leagues with their own specific criteria (age, heights, etc.). And the same goes for any other sport.

 

[wellwisher]

I dunno. The science isn’t definitive on this yet.
Sports scientists do agree that a lot of athletes now technically have their own advantages and disadvantages, based on their own unique biological makeup (due to this thing called Evolution, giving people different adaptions. But that’s just my uneducated guess.)
For example the gold winning breastroke/freestyle Olympic athlete Ian Thorpe actually has more lung capacity than even the average athlete. Something he was actually born with and occurred entirely naturally.
Arguably this gives him a biological advantage and he has even had to defend his own gold medal legacy from time to time. He’s since retired though. So I doubt he cares too much lol

With transition arguably starting at younger ages than it was before, with the use of puberty blockers, one could make the argument that such biological differences don’t always have a chance to actually occur in the case of some trans athletes. In others it might.

This might come down to a case by case basis.
Though truth be told, I honestly don’t care lol.

Transgender requires drugs and surgery which is not natural. This is not natural, but is closer to cyborg. The bylaws of Athletics do not allow the use of drugs or cyborgs. This should eliminate any transgender, who uses additives of any kind. They should. need to wait to change until after their athletic career is over.

Blood doping, where one extracts their own blood, and then later inject extra blood; before competitions, is illegal. This is natural, but it is still illegal. So why can transgender compete with a cocktail of drugs?

Testosterone and any other substance listed under the Anabolic Agents section of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List are prohibited at all times, including “other substances with a similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s).” This catch-all allows for the possibility that there are many .

Why do trans get to cheat, since testosterone and estrogen are not allowed by the bylaw of athletics? If a straight girl was to take testosterone, she would be expelled.

Sports has to be consistent; either make it wide open to drugs or keep it clean for all. If you wish to change into another fender and also wish to be an athlete, you should need to wait to transform, after your career is over, so nobody gets to cheat.

People with body images that wish they had more muscle mass, cannot use this as an excuse to do steroids in sports. If this was a Lefty legal loophole, many would claim this body image defense, so they could cheat to win.

 

[Kfox]

I am suggesting that there are female players that can easily compete with male players regardless of genitalia or genetic dispositions. And it's time we grew up and faced that fact, and stop pretending that gender alone determines ability.

If what you are saying were true, there would be at least 1 woman in the NBA; but there is not. Didn't the best professional women's soccer players in the world get totally destroyed by a bunch of 14 year old boys? That's because gender does determine ability; to pretend otherwise ignores reality.

It's time to designate competitors by some other criteria. And in basketball height will likely be a factor. As even the "short" players in that sport are taller than most other people. But as anyone might enjoy playing that sport, it can still be open to all via organizing different leagues with their own specific criteria (age, heights, etc.). And the same goes for any other sport.

I know they had "midgit wrestling, but do you really think people are gonna be interested in midgit basketball? I don't think so. Dude! As I said before; just separate them according to biololgy; problem solved.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why not just have the trans men play with on the women's team, and trans women play on the men's teams?

Why would you do that? The transwomen will have lost much of their muscle mass from testosterone. They are no longer men. They could not compete. The transmen will had the advantage of male hormones that the ciswomen have not had. You are merely shifting the potential problems from Transwomen having an advantage on women's teams to transmen having an advantage on women's teams. It is not a solution.

No matter what transmen do not seem to be able to compete. The hormonal advantage they have means that they cannot compete on women's teams and the fact that they did not go through male puberty puts them at a disadvantage on men's teams. No one seems to care about those athletes. As long as you cannot win you are not seen as a threat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Whatever stance they take it would be better if they were honest about their preferences.

The choice is to prioritise fairness or inclusion, and they shouldn’t pretend they can achieve both.

Some sports have already stated they prioritise safety over inclusion.

Other organisations seem to want to avoid stating how they arrived at their decisions and hide behind ambiguities.



What do you think might happen in this regard?

Imo it’s pretty well established that in any sport that utilises strength or speed that significant advantages remain for many years, and probably

Top athletes are separated by fractions of a percent between winning and being in the middle of the pack.

Male advantage ranges from 10-30% in many sports.

Lia Thomas went from being a top 500 ranked swimmer to dominant wins.

Other than understanding quite how much the advantage is (and this may be very difficult if not impossible to work out any time soon), not sure what needs to be worked out.

I really cannot make any solid predictions. Here is a very weak one on my part: The understanding of what makes a person trans will be better understood. Most of the issues right now arise from the changes during puberty. If being trans is well enough understood then changes could start before puberty. That is an event that makes male bones heavier and denser. It also causes additional growth from my very limited understanding. If a transwoman never goes through male puberty but instead goes through female puberty from hormone treatments the inequalities may no longer exist.

 

[PureX]

If what you are saying were true, there would be at least 1 woman in the NBA; but there is not.

The NBA is not the sum total of the sport of basketball. And it's just as misogynistic as the businessmen that run it. Change takes time. Ignorance and habits are persistent because people fight against anything that's new, even if it's better.

Didn't the best professional women's soccer players in the world get totally destroyed by a bunch of 14 year old boys? That's because gender does determine ability; to pretend otherwise ignores reality.

Was that a Fox News story? Sounds like it. Change the way teams are formed from the ground up and give it 20 years to shake itself out and I guarantee there will be great teams and great players with various genders and sexual orientations.

I know they had "midget wrestling, but do you really think people are gonna be interested in midget basketball?

I suspect some midgets would be. You seem to be missing the whole point of sport, here.

I don't think so. Dude! As I said before; just separate them according to biololgy; problem solved.

Clearly, that problem is not solved.

 

[JDMS]

Why not just have the trans men play with on the women's team, and trans women play on the men's teams?

Then the cis women will lose. A trans man 5 years on testosterone will have a greater advantage over cis women than a trans woman 5 years on HRT will.

 

[SomeRandom]

Transgender requires drugs and surgery which is not natural. This is not natural, but is closer to cyborg. The bylaws of Athletics do not allow the use of drugs or cyborgs. This should eliminate any transgender, who uses additives of any kind. They should. need to wait to change until after their athletic career is over.

Umm that literally describes the entirety of the medical science field in general, you do realise that right?
People in general rely on drugs, surgeries etc for various ailments,
Including athletes. Why do you think sports science is a thing?

But I mean ideally sure they should wait, I suppose. Transition is happening at an earlier age though. Because it makes surgery easier and less invasive. So that’s kind of a crappy thing to ask of someone.

Blood doping, where one extracts their own blood, and then later inject extra blood; before competitions, is illegal. This is natural, but it is still illegal. So why can transgender compete with a cocktail of drugs?

Testosterone and any other substance listed under the Anabolic Agents section of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List are prohibited at all times, including “other substances with a similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s).” This catch-all allows for the possibility that there are many .

Why do trans get to cheat, since testosterone and estrogen are not allowed by the bylaw of athletics? If a straight girl was to take testosterone, she would be expelled.

I’m afriad I think I’m far too uneducated about the various nuances of trans medical treatment to really answer this properly. So I’ll offer an uneducated guess

Such transition treatment is done with the explicit intent of changing one’s body to fit into the desired “sex”
For lack of a better phrasing.
So presumably the body is undergoing various changes, yeah?
Now I can see a FtM transition perhaps not being able to truly “keep up” with cis male bodies, so to speak
Perhaps it might present more of an issue with MtF transitions.

This is complicated issue and I honestly don’t know what the solution will be going forward. But again I am quite uneducated in this particular field. So I’ll leave it to the sports experts

Sports has to be consistent; either make it wide open to drugs or keep it clean for all. If you wish to change into another fender and also wish to be an athlete, you should need to wait to transform, after your career is over, so nobody gets to cheat.

People with body images that wish they had more muscle mass, cannot use this as an excuse to do steroids in sports. If this was a Lefty legal loophole, many would claim this body image defense, so they could cheat to win.

Maybe. Maybe not.
At the end of the day, I don’t actually care that much. I like sports don’t get me wrong.
But since there is far more going on in the humanoid body than mere male and female (even when excluding trans people) sooner or later sports commissions will need to add nuance and address the actual complexities of human biology.

It will be a bumpy road and I can see a lot of back and forth going on. Maybe we will never solve it, completely. Maybe medical science will offer a solution in the future with more research done.

 

[Kfox]

Why would you do that? The transwomen will have lost much of their muscle mass from testosterone. They are no longer men.

No; if a trans woman want to play sports, they can quit using Estrogen allowing their testosterone to grow back. You don’t have to use Estrogen to be a trans woman

The transmen will had the advantage of male hormones that the ciswomen have not had.

No; Anabolic Steroids are not allowed in sports so if a trans man want to play sports, they can’t use Steroids (like everybody else). They don’t have to use Steroids to be a trans man

 

[Kfox]

The NBA is not the sum total of the sport of basketball.

No, but it is an indication that if the best of women stood a chance against the best of men, there would be women in the NBA.

Was that a Fox News story? Sounds like it.

Are you denying this happened? Just because something is covered by fox news does not mean it can’t be true.

Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys

Australia’s women’s football team are ranked the fifth best side in world football. So how did they lose 7-0 to a collection of 15-year-old boys?

www.standard.co.uk

I suspect some midgets would be. You seem to be missing the whole point of sport, here.

Clearly, that problem is not solved.

What’s wrong with separating them according to their biology?

 

[Kfox]

Then the cis women will lose. A trans man 5 years on testosterone will have a greater advantage over cis women than a trans woman 5 years on HRT will.

But if they spend 2 years off of Testosterone or HRT, the advantages/disadvantages associated with those drugs goes away. Like I said; if they wanna play sports, they can quit using performance altering drugs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No; if a trans woman want to play sports, they can quit using Estrogen allowing their testosterone to grow back. You don’t have to use Estrogen to be a trans woman

No; Anabolic Steroids are not allowed in sports so if a trans man want to play sports, they can’t use Steroids (like everybody else). They don’t have to use Steroids to be a trans man

Sorry, but now you want to make a transman not a man, That was not your suggestion. You said let transmen compete on the women's team. You are now not being consistent in your demands.

 

[Kfox]

Sorry, but now you want to make a transman not a man, That was not your suggestion.

Not making anything. Trans men are not biological men, they are biological women who identify as men.

You said let transmen compete on the women's team.

Yes! Since trans men are biological women who identify as men, I'm saying you have all biological women compete on the same team regardless of what they identify as. What's wrong with that?

 

[Augustus]

But if they spend 2 years off of Testosterone or HRT, the advantages/disadvantages associated with those drugs goes away

For elite athletes, the advantages of PEDs don’t actually go away after 2 years which is why I am sceptical about claims 2 year qualifying periods for transwomen make things fair.

Some have argued drug cheats should get life bans due to long term benefits.

 

[Augustus]

Was that a Fox News story? Sounds like it. Change the way teams are formed from the ground up and give it 20 years to shake itself out and I guarantee there will be great teams and great players with various genders and sexual orientations.

If this logic underpins your idea to do weight and strength class sports it makes it even worse than it was previously.

Boys start to outperform elite women at around 14 to 15 ( see 100m sprint records for an easy example).

It’s pretty obvious why boys start to outperform women after a couple of years of puberty.

It’s not just sexism and lack of opportunity that make women perform at a lower standard, it is biology.

A 2 meter tall WNBA player is still not as good as a 180cm NBA player

We should do more to support and encourage women’s sport (and there has been much progress recently) but your proposal would be a disaster for women and is thus immoral.

In many sports I would consider men’s category to be open so any woman good enough should be allowed to compete. This wouldn’t replace women’s categories though.

 

[Augustus]

I really cannot make any solid predictions. Here is a very weak one on my part: The understanding of what makes a person trans will be better understood. Most of the issues right now arise from the changes during puberty. If being trans is well enough understood then changes could start before puberty. That is an event that makes male bones heavier and denser. It also causes additional growth from my very limited understanding. If a transwoman never goes through male puberty but instead goes through female puberty from hormone treatments the inequalities may no longer exist.

I agree that if a transwoman never underwent male puberty then this may allow them to compete fairly and should be allowed.

Not sure why this would be a reason to 'wait and see' regarding transwomen who have undergone male puberty though given we know they retain a significant advantage.

Ultimately, many sporting organisations will need to make a choice between inclusion and fairness rather than finding reasons to kick the can down the road.

 

[Kfox]

For elite athletes, the advantages of PEDs don’t actually go away after 2 years which is why I am sceptical about claims 2 year qualifying periods for transwomen make things fair.

Some have argued drug cheats should get life bans due to long term benefits.

There is a point when PED advantages do go away. The medical community can figure that out; my point is getting them off the drugs should fix the issue if you separate according to biology rather than gender. As a matter of fact, I don't see the harm of getting rid of gender all together! Not just sports, but in all factions of life; if gender is just a social construct, why have it if it causes so many problems?