• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What exactly is Islamophobia?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No, but you can find the case that one Muslim will declare that another Muslim is not a true one and so in reverse. We are doing a variant of no True Scotsman.

hmmm. I'm going to propose (admittedly an oversimplification), that there are two categories of beliefs that Muslims hold, concerning Islam:

1 - A small set of beliefs that EVERY Muslim agrees to.
2 - A much larger set of beliefs for which Muslims disagree.

To me, if there are no beliefs in category one, then the term "Muslim" has no meaning.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
hmmm. I'm going to propose (admittedly an oversimplification), that there are two categories of beliefs that Muslims hold, concerning Islam:

1 - A small set of beliefs that EVERY Muslim agrees to.
2 - A much larger set of beliefs for which Muslims disagree.

To me, if there are no beliefs in category one, then the term "Muslim" has no meaning.

Yeah, we can meet on that one. It works good enough for me.
 

Viker

Häxan
Even if those "negatives" explain murderous behaviour? I guess I'm a Naziphobe as well.
See, right there? You're equivocating all of Islam and Muslims with the negatives you've selected. It's a generalization. You've compared Islam to Nazism. And you honestly expect others to not see it that way? Why not pick apart Christianity or Jews for the negatives you can find in the Bible or history even? Why just Islam/Muslims?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
See, right there? You're equivocating all of Islam and Muslims with the negatives you've selected. It's a generalization. You've compared Islam to Nazism. And you honestly expect others to not see it that way? Why not pick apart Christianity or Jews for the negatives you can find in the Bible or history even? Why just Islam/Muslims?

well for one thing, Xians and Jews have compromised on the perfection of their scripture, and Muslims have not. If Islam were to reform a bit the comparisons would be more valid.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
See, right there? You're equivocating all of Islam and Muslims with the negatives you've selected. It's a generalization.

No matter how many times I say that I'm talking about Islam as it was created 1400 years ago, and NOT Muslims as a whole, somebody comes along and says this. I guess it goes with the territory.

You've compared Islam to Nazism. And you honestly expect others to not see it that way?

Nazis dehumanized their enemies (people who were enemies only because the Nazis said they were). The Qur'an calls their enemies (people who were enemies only because Allah said they were) "the worst of God's beasts", "like donkeys", "like dogs with their tongues hanging out", "like lost cattle".

You have NO idea what you're talking about. Have you read the Qur'an?

Why not pick apart Christianity or Jews for the negatives you can find in the Bible or history even? Why just Islam/Muslims?

There are currently 189 jihad organisations spreading the peace and love of Islam. When Christians and Jews do the same I'll read the bible and try to figure out how works.
 

Viker

Häxan
. When Christians and Jews do the same I'll read the bible and try to figure out how works.
So, you're just naive (plenty of Jewish and Christian extremists to choose from, best for another thread) and then choosing to ignore that most Muslims don't practice the Quran to the letter of the law, so to speak. They see a historical context to the Quran but it's only a platform they build modern practice from.

Still, why just pick at the Quran? The Bible is bigger and better known. More people follow it. I can not comprehend your reasoning for isolating and nearly obsessing over the Quran.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
So, you're just naive (plenty of Jewish and Christian extremists to choose from, best for another thread) and then choosing to ignore that most Muslims don't practice the Quran to the letter of the law, so to speak. They see a historical context to the Quran but it's only a platform they build modern practice from.

Still, why just pick at the Quran? The Bible is bigger and better known. More people follow it. I can not comprehend your reasoning for isolating and nearly obsessing over the Quran.

Asked and answered.

Again, have you read the Qur'an? Even one verse?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You've compared Islam to Nazism. And you honestly expect others to not see it that way?

Nazis dehumanized their enemies (people who were enemies only because the Nazis said they were). The Qur'an calls their enemies (people who were enemies only because Allah said they were) "the worst of God's beasts", "like donkeys", "like dogs with their tongues hanging out", "like lost cattle".

You have NO idea what you're talking about. Have you read the Qur'an?
 
There is another important perspective here: Everything you said above is true ONLY as far as the conscious MIND is concerned. But MOST of what guides us is our subconscious BRAIN. The subconscious brain is not swayed by theology or interpretations. The subconscious brain is quite susceptible to attacks like advertising and marketing and propaganda. And the Quran is a brilliant example of propaganda. So the more you study it, the more you'll create a schism between your conscious theological interpretations, and the propagandistic messages in the book.

It’s an example of rhetoric, sure.

As to how the subconscious impacts understanding of the understanding, impacts and practice of Islam I’m not really sure.

It will depend on all kinds of sociocultural variables.

It’s a dynamic relationship, scripture may influence the subconscious and the subconscious may influence understanding of scripture. Scripture influences culture and culture influences…
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It’s an example of rhetoric, sure.

As to how the subconscious impacts understanding of the understanding, impacts and practice of Islam I’m not really sure.

It will depend on all kinds of sociocultural variables.

It’s a dynamic relationship, scripture may influence the subconscious and the subconscious may influence understanding of scripture. Scripture influences culture and culture influences…
Here's a specific example: If you make the Quran a consistent part of your life, your subconscious will absolutely come to the conclusion that "non-Muslims are bad people". full stop. (This is because the Quran delivers variations on this idea 500+ times.) Again, your conscious mind can try to find all sorts of ways to reinterpret that repeated message, but such reinterpretations are meaningless to the subconscious brain. This has nothing do to with sociocultural values, it's just the cognitive science that underpins the mechanisms of propaganda.

As for "the practice of Islam", I'm not sure what you mean here. But what I CAN say is that our subconscious brains run the show much, much more than most of us are comfortable believing. I would recommend the book "Incognito", by Eagleman, to understand this more. So, when a student of the Quran meets a non-Muslim, their subconscious will take a disliking to the non-Muslim. Given how many Muslims make the Quran a consistent part of their lives, this divisiveness should bot be ignored.
 
Here's a specific example: If you make the Quran a consistent part of your life, your subconscious will absolutely come to the conclusion that "non-Muslims are bad people". full stop. (This is because the Quran delivers variations on this idea 500+ times.) Again, your conscious mind can try to find all sorts of ways to reinterpret that repeated message, but such reinterpretations are meaningless to the subconscious brain. This has nothing do to with sociocultural values, it's just the cognitive science that underpins the mechanisms of propaganda.

As for "the practice of Islam", I'm not sure what you mean here. But what I CAN say is that our subconscious brains run the show much, much more than most of us are comfortable believing. I would recommend the book "Incognito", by Eagleman, to understand this more. So, when a student of the Quran meets a non-Muslim, their subconscious will take a disliking to the non-Muslim. Given how many Muslims make the Quran a consistent part of their lives, this divisiveness should bot be ignored.

Having lived in the "Muslim world" for a significant proportion of my life, I don't think this theory matches the reality.

I've seen absolutely no evidence that personal religiosity correlates with anti-kaffir sentiment until you get to the fundamentalist type level, although I'm not sure fundies are necessarily more knowledgeable scholars.

Cognitive dissonance is more powerful than simple exposure to ideas, although I agree that mere exposure does impact people in general. It's easier to recontextualise textual information than deny a personal experience that you want to be true (my friend is a good person).

As with any kind of identity it can create in group bias, and I would say at the large scale then many people will support policies that favour Islam, although again I'm not sure of the extent to which this is a feature of greater piety rather than simply in-group bias and tribal loyalty.

Such in/out group biases also exist in minority religions, often to a greater degree due to perceived discrimination (which certainly does have its basis in reality).

It's not as easy as 'Quran says X therefore people believe it"
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
No, you are talking about an imaginary Islam created by you in the 21st c.

You just haven’t grasped this yet ;)

I’ve repeatedly asked you to provide an example for these assertions. You never do, because you can’t. Your posts only serve to further demonstrate that gratuitous denial is all you’ll ever ‘contribute’ to the debate.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It's not as easy as 'Quran says X therefore people believe it"

Yes, it is that simple.

In fact, it's the very foundation of Islam. Without that most basic display of slavish devotion there is no Islam. Why else are there 99 ways to say "Slave of Allah"? There are only two types of people described in the Qur'an - those who accept the "signs of Allah", and those who deny them.
 
I’ve repeatedly asked you to provide an example for these assertions. You never do, because you can’t. Your posts only

Here are 3 objectively wrong statements

Islam is NOT a "complex living tradition". It is what it has been for 1400 years
There never has been some pure normative “Islam” , it has been evolving and adapting from day one.

Much of Orthodox Islam is medieval rather than from the time of Muhammad.

It is a living tradition.

Islam is defined by exactly 6,236 passages of scripture
Not for 99.9% of Muslims who use the sunnah, hadith, itjihad, etc.
Yes, it is that simple.

Not for 99.9% of Muslims, but don’t let that stand in your way.

You can’t take a literal reading of an isolated passage and say “that’s what Islam teaches”.

For example, you quoted a verse about not taking unbelievers as friends or allies yet all Muslim leaders, including Muhammad have taken unbelievers for friends or allies.

So either you understand Islam better than Muhammad or you are, once again, wrong.
 

Viker

Häxan
Asked and answered.

Again, have you read the Qur'an? Even one verse?
Here's one about natural beauty.

"Thus, everything in the universe has been created beautiful, with purpose and in proportion and measure, both qualitatively and quantitatively." (al-Qamar 54:49)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Your subconscious brain does exactly that.

Yeah, and then I sometimes overwrite that with my frontal lopes. The problem with a theory that says that all human behavior is subconscious, is that the theory is not subconscious. There is more, but in short, if someone is trained and is not alone that person can learn to spot some elements of the subconscious and learn to do otherwise in some cases.
 
Top