Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[ElishaElijah]

A Christian cannot be possessed by demons because a believer has been bought by the Blood of Jesus and owned by God. A believer can give place to the devil though and demonized. No good thing dwells in the flesh and that’s an area that Satan can exploit and torment you in your flesh, mind and emotions. Why we have to put our armor on and take thoughts captive.

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6‬:‭10‬-‭13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


““Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭26‬-‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

As for unbelievers it’s different and need salvation because we were dead in trespasses and sins and need salvation through Jesus Christ.

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

Demons, Deliverance and Spiritual Battle: Greg Locke's 'Come Out In Jesus Name' Returns for Second Run in Theaters

The release of this film dropped a spiritual bomb on the forces of Satan.

www.charismanews.com

 

[ElishaElijah]

28 Schoolgirls Hospitalized After Messing with Ouija Board: Report

After the girls showed symptoms of anxiety, they were taken to a nearby hospital. Some were accompanied by their parents.

www.westernjournal.com

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It is a twisted and sick ideology, isn't it? I'm sorry you went through that. Christians are useless in any crisis because they're too busy rationalizing everything as "God's plan".

Yes, it is, and what I shared with you isn't the only negative experience I've had with Christians in my lifetime. Christians have told me that God didn't save me from the abuse I endured while growing up because I didn't have enough faith in him or that I had unforgiven sins. Remember, I was an abused child and teen, sincerely praying and pleading with God to protect me and save me from being beaten and bullied. There were times when I was growing up that I feared for my life because my adopted mother threatened me several times, as did another teenage girl who constantly bullied me in high school.

Despite my pleas to God to protect and save me, I was abused at home for thirteen and a half years and bullied at school for twelve. Not only did God not protect me, but neither did the pastor or congregation of the church I attended, nor did my extended family, the neighbors, teachers at school, other children's parents, or anyone else who was aware that I was being abused at home and bullied at school. Someone I knew when I was growing up told me that it was common knowledge in the town where we lived that I was abused and bullied. If God exists, then, as far as I am concerned, he can go to hell.

 

[Soandso]

I believe it takes the gift of spiritual discernment but as a guide a few questions can be asked. The first one is: Is this a problem? The definition of mental illness is that the person can't cope with what is going on in his mind. Second: Have you had a bump on your head? Third: have you taken a hallucinogen? Fourth: Is there a history of mental illness in your family?

That's not really the definition of a mental illness, though. According to the dictionary: any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people. How do we separete that from demonic possession?

As for the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd questions, there are many other factors as well. What about trauma, like seeing combat? What about an undiagnosed illness that doesn't run in your family? What about a chemical imbalance or damaged nervous system that cannot be known without serious testing?

All of these things seem to be observable and explainable via tangible means. I don't see where the supernatural comes in. So I guess I need to see where we can get a clearer picture in where we can apply this "discernment"

My mom supposedly had the spiritual gift of discernment which made her throw my toys away as a child, such as my Heman and Care bear toys because they were "worldly," Yet my G. I. Joes and Transformers were ok. Not sure how any of that makes any sense or what the difference was, so where can we observe spiritual discernment working in a tangible way?

 

[setarcos]

I'm sorry but I find this extremely tedious and somewhat boring.

Tedious and boring??! I find it extremely fascinating. How we come to believe what we believe, how our beliefs change over time, how and why we lie about our belief to others and even ourselves -myself included of course- I find worth my consideration.
I've made my reasoned argument. If you no longer wish to engage in its discussion then so be it. Just know that finding something tedious and boring is not a reasoned argument. Its an emotional deterrent.

My position is that I am not convinced that god(s) exist because I haven't seen any good evidence that convinces me of that.
Got any?

Yes, information theory applied to observed phenomena such as that found in DNA and the fine tuning of the universal constants for instance. Keep in mind these are evidences of an unknown cause, but one that may be explicable by a hypothesis which describes a Godlike sentient being.
A little advice though. I don't think any amount of evidence on its own will convince you or any so called "non-believer" that God exists because the cause of that evidence will always remain hypothetical until that cause makes itself known.
As for me, something causes me to feel as if God exists. Perhaps that something is an existent God? And no that's not an argument for Gods existence.

 

[setarcos]

It is a twisted and sick ideology, isn't it? I'm sorry you went through that. Christians are useless in any crisis because they're too busy rationalizing everything as "God's plan".

This seems to me to be a pretty biased and ignorant point of view driven by emotion rather than rationality. Some Christians may be terrible in crises but so are some non-Christians. The last crisis I was in was when I almost lost my hand. The doctor that saved it is a Christian and it was saved in a Catholic hospital. Chesley Sullenberger of "miracle on the hudson" fame is a Christian. Generals MacArthur and Paton were Christians. Almost all elected U.S. presidents were Christian...just to name a few who handled crises. There's plenty of Christians who handled and are handling crises quite well.

If your understanding of Christianity is such that you demand that God answer you the way you want to be answered or even expectantly demand to be answered then it is sadly misplaced. No one on earth is immune to suffering, to misfortune, to pains and anguishes, and even death. Including Christians. That is the reality scripture presents and it coincides with the reality we know.
God is not obligated to save you, your child, or anyone from these things merely because of professing being a Christian and you have asked him to. "Thou shall not tempt the lord thy God". That is ignorance of how Gods goodness is defined. And it is ignorance of the tools God has provided to help ourselves.

 

[setarcos]

isn't the only negative experience I've had with Christians in my lifetime.

First off, understand that you are not the only person to have suffered or are suffering. In that sense I empathize with you.
Second, it seems to me you are describing ignorant individual Christians not Christianity itself. Thank god ignorance is not in itself unforgivable. Even the apostles were chastised at one point by Jesus for getting it wrong.
Thirdly, I find it pretty ironic that your arguing against a belief system that acknowledges the reality of your own claims, that is an ability to communicate with the dead, while giving honorifics to those who most probably find your claim of being a psychic absurd.
Are you simply projecting your anger in suffering upon a Christianity you've misunderstood which has failed to meet your expectations in alleviating that suffering? If so I'm sorry. Life's a necessary tragedy evolving into true peace. If we can psychically survive the necessities of living this life we'll get to that peace.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Watch the videos because no way to explain everything on this forum, gave plenty of information and resources ex Derek Prince, current Deliverance Ministries. So claiming ignorance doesn’t work. Demons love to hide, they don’t like being exposed by the light, darkness and the occult hate that.
Thats Bible to Ephesians 5 and John 3.

When did I ever say ignore doctors, I said the contrary that I work with doctors and don’t cross over into their area of expertise. So are you willfully slandering or just reading into something not there? Which is it?
If you still after all the videos still come up with a different answer than demons then that’s you, stick with whatever helps you out, I’m free by the power of God. Are you free ?
For the supposed believers who deny there are demons, how can you be a follower of Jesus when you deny much of His ministry?
“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭28‬-‭30‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I did watch the videos. The young guy just listed behaviors that are better explained by professional medical examination. So nothing there. Nothing that would lead to a conclusion of demons and only that.

The second guy is either a demon or possessed by one. I know. I can tell. I can't tell you how. That's just how it works. Just believe me. That is what is being asked of us. I don't know that. But if I really said I did, it wouldn't be based on any evidence that was provided.

If God has brought you healing, redemption and salvation, that is fantastic. I'm happy for you. But you made some statements that I am not alone in interpreting as advice to ignore medical science and practice. If you weren't doing that, it was presented very confused to the point of looking like you were doing that. Again, and I don't think I am wrong here, conflated the illicit consumption of drugs with the legal and valid application of drug therapy. Those two are not the same thing.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There is and if you’re a believer in Christ you can find it, but if someone professing to be in Christ and they say they don’t believe the Scriptures then why talk anymore about them to that person.

I think it isn't a question of belief, but one of interpretation.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There are more messiahs and prophets in religious forums than there are in any scripture.

Pretty judgmental too if you ask me. If you don't believe and follow them, you are not the right kind of Christian or not a true Christian. As if they have the power and authority to make that call.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

@Kelly of the Phoenix I've been close to some that think the TV is talking to them, etc. Usually these people are on heavy drugs, perhaps of the psychotropic

It has been my experience with people that hear voices that some of them have taken lots of drugs of the legal and illegal kind, also get involved in mystical experiences.

Well that’s not my mom’s case. I’m lucky she takes blood pressure medicine.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ironically, being convinced to be haunted by a demon fits right into the picture of the delusions that come with psychosis.

Such is often the problem with getting schizofrenics and alike to take their meds.
They are convinced their problem is a demon and in even worse cases they think their doctor is trying to poison them with the meds.

This is why anti-psychotics also come in the form of melting tablets like Zyprexa, which almost instantly melts when it touches saliva, to make sure they can't quickly spit it out when the nurse / doctor / family member turns his back.

I feel compelled here to share a very personal story of the worst time of my life... It pains me to even think about it.

My wife dealt with psychosis 15 years ago. It was hell on earth, believe me. Our lives were completely and utterly disrupted. I got completely exhausted. She was completely convinced the entire world was against her, that people on TV were talking about her, that there was a conspiracy at work against her,... And all this was "told" to her by the voices in her head.
It was insanely scary. Till this day, I kiss the ground that somehow she continued to trust me. I have to admit, I was afraid. Afraid that one night she would start believing I was also part of the "grand conspiracy" and that she might actually try to hurt me in my sleep or something.

I had to stay home for 6 weeks from work and totally isolated the both of us to prevent such from happening. The first couple of weeks I spend hours a day making her take her meds, convincing her she needed them. After the accute period was over, I actually slept for almost 24 hour straight. Went to bed at 19h and only woke in the afternoon the next day. It was crazy.

After 3 years of being stable, we tried fading out the medication. 2 weeks later: BOOM, the same sh!t all over again. Only this time, I noticed the first symptoms straight away and we immediatly threw the equivalent of a nuclear bomb at it in the form of anti-psychotics. It worked. It was much less severe and only lasted 3 weeks. Still had to stay home again though.

Now, 15 years later, she is still on a small maintenance dose. She herself doesn't want to try and quit anymore. She is completely fine now and we have 2 wonderful kids (8 years later then we originally planned as a direct result of those psychotic episodes). Are there some side effects? Yes.

The first meds we tried gave heavy weight gain and some motoric stuff (slight trembling of a few fingers).
The one she uses now only makes it hard to lose weight.

So is a bit chubby. We'll take some chubbyness and a daily small pill over the horror of psychosis any day of the week, thanks.


So now everybody knows why I'm touchy about this very subject.


Worst. Time. Of. My. Life. (and her's, obviously).

My wife's literal words today are that she'll take an aggressive cancer over psychosis any day if she had to choose.

Both me and my wife are atheists. During the episodes, suddenly she turned all "spiritual" also. Suddenly demons and the devil are real entities and out to get us all. Interesting side note.



So.... in conclusion... @ElishaElijah : you have no idea what you are talking about. And it literally pains me when I see people talk thrash like you do about this extremely serious subject.

I'm concerned about this subject to for much the same reasons. I mentioned my father and his bipolar disorder and how well treatment and maintenance worked in restoring a pretty solid life for him and the whole family.

I'm glad to hear another personal story of how things have worked out for others getting proper treatment.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I did watch the videos. The young guy just listed behaviors that are better explained by professional medical examination. So nothing there. Nothing that would lead to a conclusion of demons and only that.

The second guy is either a demon or possessed by one. I know. I can tell. I can't tell you how. That's just how it works. Just believe me. That is what is being asked of us. I don't know that. But if I really said I did, it wouldn't be based on any evidence that was provided.

I watched the videos as well, and I'm skeptical of them too.

If God has brought you healing, redemption and salvation, that is fantastic. I'm happy for you. But you made some statements that I am not alone in interpreting as advice to ignore medical science and practice. If you weren't doing that, it was presented very confused to the point of looking like you were doing that. Again, and I don't think I am wrong here, conflated the illicit consumption of drugs with the legal and valid application of drug therapy. Those two are not the same thing.

That was my impression as well.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well that’s not my mom’s case. I’m lucky she takes blood pressure medicine.

I have one more question, not to pressure you, but I have known people (here and otherwise) that loudly proclaim their association with demons and who are witches. When I was young I was not a believer in God or demons in particular. I worked at a publishing house and the receptionist was very nice and she told me she was a witch. I had never heard of such a thing outside of cartoons so I was surprised. She spoke of it as if it were something normal.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well that’s not my mom’s case. I’m lucky she takes blood pressure medicine.

Glad she's taking her pressure medication also. As I researched the meds I found some are banned in Europe that are given regularly in the U.S.

 

[YoursTrue]

Pretty judgmental too if you ask me. If you don't believe and follow them, you are not the right kind of Christian or not a true Christian. As if they have the power and authority to make that call.

Some religions and adherents claim to be Christian and believe demons exist, while there are those saying they are Christian who do not believe in the existence of demons. (shrug)

 

[ElishaElijah]

I think it isn't a question of belief, but one of interpretation

But you made some statements that I am not alone in interpreting as advice to ignore medical science and practice. If you weren't doing that, it was presented very confused to the point of looking like you were doing that. Again, and I don't think I am wrong here, conflated the illicit consumption of drugs with the legal and valid application of drug therapy. Those two are not the same thing.

And explained and clarified and you still decided to go the slander route. I was very clear about the drugs help but also have side effects, that doctors don’t present the spiritual aspect that “could “ be the issue. I’m sure people would rather be free from the drugs and the mental illness if their torment was demonic in nature. Sometimes it is.
Also, I did say the purpose of my drug use was similar because I needed them to function in society, addictions are classified as mental illness. Jesus Christ took all that away from me so why wouldn’t I tell other people who are being tormented about the hope I found?
Also, was clear that I work with doctors and don’t ever tell anyone to stop taking prescribed medication but consult the doctor who prescribed them. I pray for people to be Healed and Delivered, Disciple and offer Eternal Life, baptize people and everything Jesus commanded me to do. But yes I do pray expecting people to be healed and delivered, some have, some haven’t yet.

And this can only have 1 meaning in the ministry of Jesus, how can a believer say there are no such thing as demons? If they did it wouldn’t be by the Holy Spirit, but by a different spirit.

“But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoils. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭20‬-‭26‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Dan From Smithville]

And explained and clarified and you still decided to go the slander route. I was very clear about the drugs help but also have side effects, that doctors don’t present the spiritual aspect that “could “ be the issue. I’m sure people would rather be free from the drugs and the mental illness if their torment was demonic in nature. Sometimes it is.
Also, I did say the purpose of my drug use was similar because I needed them to function in society, addictions are classified as mental illness. Jesus Christ took all that away from me so why wouldn’t I tell other people who are being tormented about the hope I found?
Also, was clear that I work with doctors and don’t ever tell anyone to stop taking prescribed medication but consult the doctor who prescribed them. I pray for people to be Healed and Delivered, Disciple and offer Eternal Life, baptize people and everything Jesus commanded me to do. But yes I do pray expecting people to be healed and delivered, some have, some haven’t yet.

And this can only have 1 meaning in the ministry of Jesus, how can a believer say there are no such thing as demons? If they did it wouldn’t be by the Holy Spirit, but by a different spirit.

“But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoils. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭20‬-‭26‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

It isn't slander. It was a conclusion based on what I saw. It wasn't clear and I was not alone in concluding as I did. Perhaps you needed to explain yourself better.

If I was mistaken, I apologize. But it wasn't malicious. It was my honest interpretation of what it looked like you were saying.

I understand why some people self-medicate, but it still is not the same as medical therapy.

I can't say whether the torment is real demons or metaphorical, but all the evidence I have seen is it is health issues resulting from the functioning of the brain.

Like I said, I am happy for you. I wish you all the best.

How can someone that doesn't really know if something is demon or not believe they exist anyway? How do you know what the proper interpretation of that is from the Bible? I have never said they don't exist. I just don't know that what people claim is demons or not and much to doubt those claims. You can challenge how I believe, but it isn't up to you decide what that means.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It isn't slander. It was a conclusion based on what I saw. It wasn't clear and I was not alone in concluding as I did. Perhaps you needed to explain yourself better.

If I was mistaken, I apologize. But it wasn't malicious. It was my honest interpretation of what it looked like you were saying.

I understand why some people self-medicate, but it still is not the same as medical therapy.

I can't say whether the torment is real demons or metaphorical, but all the evidence I have seen is it is health issues resulting from the functioning of the brain.

Like I said, I am happy for you. I wish you all the best.

How can someone that doesn't really know if something is demon or not believe they exist anyway? How do you know what the proper interpretation of that is from the Bible? I have never said they don't exist. I just don't know that what people claim is demons or not and much to doubt those claims. You can challenge how I believe, but it isn't up to you decide what that means.

Do you really think this is a metaphor? Come on

“Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.” For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. So those who fed the swine fled, and they told it in the city and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that had happened. Then they came to Jesus, and saw the one who had been demon-possessed and had the legion, sitting and clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid. And those who saw it told them how it happened to him who had been demon-possessed, and about the swine. Then they began to plead with Him to depart from their region. And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The Bible shows the demonic spiritual realm all the way till the end of this age, how can you as a believer say you don’t know if this is an event in the life of Jesus or a metaphor?