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WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

Brian2

Veteran Member
The two different versions of the 10 commandments are actually just essentially summaries of the "book of the covenant" which are the 613 different commandments. So that constitutes "the law". And then there are teachings of the prophets, and so the "law and the prophets" is all of it as a whole. What I strongly feel that Jesus was instructing was that getting hung up on the "letter of the law", misses the "spirit of the law", or the basic intent. It's to get us to look at the attitudes of the heart, the "inside of the cup", as opposed to focusing on the externals. This is what differentiates the "new covenant" from the "old covenant".

So when you have those worrying about did I do the 4th commandment right, or the 36th commandment, or the 421st commandment correctly, they are focusing in the wrong place. It's really not about not mixing two types of cloth that God actually cares about. But to the legalist, they imagine that is what matters.

I have come to realize through this discussion that the entire difference in understanding boils down to the nature of how we understand what love is. Those that are legalists see love as something earned or deserved. You have to obey God, for God to give his love to you and accept you. To those under Grace, they see love as unconditional. Which does not mean lawlessness in the least. It means that one follows the ways of God, because they experience that Love from God through Grace, undeserved, unearned. It is through humility that they are raised, and when raised, they act from a place of love in their hearts. And from that place of love inside that cup, the entire spirit or intent of the law and prophets is fulfilled, namely to Love: God and Others, though the Love that comes from God, to them, and through them, to the world.

This is the dividing line. This is the watershed point, where entire different understandings of the nature of God and ourselves and the world, and our interpretations of scripture part ways. One goes to the west coast, the other to the east coast to different oceans. The legalist hears unconditional love as lawlessness and a lack of discipline, or God sparing the belt. That is how it is presented in discussions, again and again in this thread. That betrays a lack of experience of what it is, and the only thing that can be related to is a parent who doesn't beat their children to get them to obey them and deserve their love which is conditional upon living up to that parents expectations.

It is truly like the Matrix. You cannot be told what unconditional love is. You have to experience it for yourself to know what it is.

I think this cartoon perfectly captures this contrast I am pointing out here:


View attachment 73047

I tend to agree with what you said but unfortunately most of it is probably not the sort of thing that is going to convince @3rdAngel,,,,,,,,,,,, if there even is such anything that will convince him. He has done his homework and studied the scriptures with the help of God it seems (and probably with the help of literature from a 7th day Sabbath group also) and he does not seem to realise or want to admit any errors we can point out to him or any inconsistencies or assumptions. We see assumptions that "Commands of God" must mean "the 10 Commandments" and he does not see that.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with what you said but unfortunately most of it is probably not the sort of thing that is going to convince @3rdAngel,,,,,,,,,,,, if there even is such anything that will convince him. He has done his homework and studied the scriptures with the help of God it seems (and probably with the help of literature from a 7th day Sabbath group also) and he does not seem to realise or want to admit any errors we can point out to him or any inconsistencies or assumptions. We see assumptions that "Commands of God" must mean "the 10 Commandments" and he does not see that.
Brian, I have only provided scripture for this OP. Yes I have prayerfully done my homework asking Jesus and seeking to know Him through His Words and claiming His promises to be my guide and teacher through His Spirit (see John 7:17; John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 John 2:27 conditional to John 8:31-36. They are Gods Words not my words and there is no error in them. Gods Words are the very definition of what truth is (John 17:17) according to the scriptures. According to the scriptures, sin is the transgression of Gods law and not believing and following what Gods Word says. That is what the scriptures say not me (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23; Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7) and according to James in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of them. Check the bible and read the OP here. There is no scripture from Genesis to Revelation that says Gods 4th commandment is no longer a part of Gods 10 commandments and a requirement for Christian living, just the same as there is no scripture that teaches that we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word handed down by the Roman Catholic Church to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Sin is the transgression of the law breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin according to the scriptures. Gods 4th commandments is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is according to the scriptures (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11). Jesus says in His own words if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:3-9 we are not worshiping God and our hearts are far from him. So tell me who should we believe and follow; God or man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God when Jesus says those who do this are not worshiping God? Sin will keep us out of Gods kingdom. The Church's have fallen away from God and His Word *Revelation 18:1-5. God has His people in every Church (John 10:16) but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24). God is calling us all out from following man-made teachings and traditions that have led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God back to His Word. Gods sheep will hear His voice (the Word) and follow Him. Those who will not hear and will not follow do so because they are not His sheep (John 10:26-27). They do not hear Gods calling because they are a apart of the many that were called but did not hear and follow and were not chosen (see Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:13-23). Its time to unlearn the lies we have all been taught at Sunday school.

Take Care. (Prayerfully check the scriptures for yourself dear friend)
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Many scriptures have been provided to show that the Law covenant ended with the "cross". That includes the 4th of the ten Words (commandments).

No scripture says we are commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day. That would fall under a doctrine of men if indeed it is commanded, but I don't think it is commanded.
Sunday, for many people is a convenient day for worship, since most people do not work on the Weekend. It became a traditional day for many.

However, many religions have days of worship, midweek, and weekends.
Some, almost daily. The day is not important to them.
By the same token, killing is also covered, then.

ciao

- viole
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian, I have only provided scripture for this OP. They are Gods Words not my words and there is no error in them. Gods Words are the very definition of what truth is (John 17:17) according to the scriptures.

We both know that not all people who use God's Words use them correctly. But you do not just use God's Words, you comment on them and make assumptions about them etc and that is fine because interpretation is what we do. And yes God's word is truth but we can't just pick and choose what we believe in God's Word or we make the Bible contradict itself. This is something we all need to be looking at in our interpretations. I hope I am not doing it, and sometimes I think I might be.

According to the scriptures, sin is the transgression of Gods law and not believing and following what Gods Word says. That is what the scriptures say not me (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23; Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7) and according to James in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of them.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.…

Yes Christians seek to do away with sin in their lives and if it was clear that keeping Saturday as the Sabbath was a command for Christians we would seek to do that so that we did not sin. Sin is breaking the law, but not all laws as written in the OT are to be kept literally and to the letter and that is the question we are trying to answer.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gentiles sin without the law just as they can fulfill the requirements of the law without the law which means they don't have to keep the Sabbath to do that and that also means that a Christian who does not think that the Saturday Sabbath is something God commands Christians to keep, can also fulfill the requirements of the law without Saturday Sabbath. Jews are under the law and Christians are not under the law. We get our knowledge of sin through the law, the whole of God's Word, in our hearts, both as we come to know God's Word and as the Spirit has spread abroad His Love in our heart and for us whatever we do that is not done in faith is sin, and of course it breaks God's law at some point, and at least in breaking the most important commandments.
Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.
Romans 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
So I am happy with how I keep the Sabbath even if it is not the 7th day Sabbath, and even if it was, I would be happy with how I keep it, especially if I have not sinned on that day, and kept it holy. And Jesus did not let people judge Him in how He kept the Sabbath and I do not let people judge me in that also. But it between God and myself and your conscience about it is different to mine.

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work kin our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

Yes we know what sin is because of the law and we break the law when we sin but that does not mean that we sin when we break the letter of the law, especially a law that God has not commanded Christians to keep. It is good to be careful we do not read things back to front.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

So loving your neighbour as yourself fulfills the requirement of the law and not doing that shows that we have broken the law and are a law breakers.
From this site: What is the law of liberty? | GotQuestions.org
We find the law of liberty first mentioned in James 1:25, “But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.” James here refers to the gospel, which, although it is called here a law, is not, strictly speaking, a law comprised of requirements and enforced by sanctions. Rather, it is a declaration of righteousness and salvation by Christ, an offer of peace and pardon by Him, and a free promise of eternal life through Him. The juxtaposition of the two contradictory terms—“law” and “liberty”—made the point, especially to the Jews, that this was an entirely new way of thinking about both. Paul uses this same technique when he refers to the “law of faith” in Romans 3:27.
The perfect liberty found in Christ fulfills the “perfect law” of the Old Testament because Christ was the only one who could. Those who come to Him in faith now have freedom from sin’s bondage and are able to obey God. Christ alone can set us free and give us true liberty (John 8:36).
The phrase “law of liberty” is found again in James 2:12. In this portion of his epistle, James is discussing the sin of showing partiality within the church. He reminds his hearers that to show favoritism toward others is a violation of the command to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Jesus Himself reminded us that all of the Law that God gave to Moses could be summed up into one concise principle—to love God with all the heart, soul and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37–40).


And having obtained mercy ourselves we also give mercy to others so God can show mercy to us and live by the royal law of loving our neighbour as ourselves.
So anyway James 2:10-11 is not really just saying that if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking all of them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and it certainly is not saying anything about the Saturday Sabbath being a command for Christians to keep.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I don't mention Constantine or the Popes and I don't rely on interpretations of prophecy concerning the Roman Catholic Church.
But you seem to be assuming that the Sabbath is to be kept by Christians and not basing it on what the Bible tells us.
Christians, of the church of Peter and Paul, the daughter churches of Babylon (Revelation 17:5), do not keep the "Sabbath", for they are based on the "message" of the false prophet Paul, and the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter. Now as to what is to happen to the "nations"/Gentiles, well, they are to be dealt with at the valley of judgment, Har-Magedon, "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) with respect to their treatment of "My people" "Israel" (Joel 3:1-2). Constantine is the guy who set up the dogmas of the Gentile church, which includes his decree to keep Sunday as the day of rest in 331 A.D. According to Yeshua, your NT bible includes the "message" (tare seed) of the "enemy"/"devil" (Matthew 13:24-30 & 39) which was planted in the same "field"/book. The result of this tare seed are the tares, which at the "end of the age", will be "gathered" by the angels, and cast into the "furnace of fire". The "prophecy" concerning the Roman Catholic church, per Revelation 17:5, was used by the leaders of the reformation to build their new churches upon. Without that, you would have no scriptural ground for the existence of the Protestant churches. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Why? Why do you interpret "the Commandments of God" to mean the 10 Commandments?
The Commandments of God are kept in the ark of the covenant, as in the covenant made between God and His people. They are written in stone, but that Law will eventually be written in the hearts of the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:32) as laid out in Ezekiel 36 & 37, after they are given a new heart and a new spirit, at which time they will walk in "My ordinances". (Ez 37:24) As for the Gentiles, they can do as they please, but have to look forward to the valley of judgment (Joel 3:1-2), which is the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21), which falls upon the "nations"/Gentiles for their treatment of "My people Israel" (Joel 3:1-2)
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
We both know that not all people who use God's Words use them correctly.
They not only use them incorrectly, taking them out of context, they seem incapable of discerning between the "message" of the "enemy"/"devil" and that of the "son of man" (Matthew 13:24-30 & 39), and apparently haven't even read the whole of the bible. Their foundation seems well rooted in the traditions of men.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
OK that is your interpretation and I have not time to refute it.

You probably won't have time to get out of the way of the coming train wreck called the "day of the LORD", which has the signs of the "fig tree" (Matthew 24:32). The "many" are on that wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13-15), and "few" have the time necessary to prepare and avoid it. Have you even had the time to prepare for a coming bank crash, or the crash of the dollar, and inevitable depression and loss of jobs, much less an EMP attack over the U.S. crashing all power, whether to your air conditioning system, gas station electrical power for the gas pump, and on time delivery at your grocery store. No food, or energy will surely tax your concept of being "saved" (Matthew 24:13). Keeping the commandments of the Roman emperor Constantine will not get your groceries delivered but will indeed present you with the "cup" of "His anger" (Revelation 14:10).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The 2.2 Billion Carnal/Earthly/Fleshly Christians in Christendom are not subject to the Law of Elohim/God neither indeed can be. The Mind of the Flesh is Enmity to Elohim/God.
According to your false prophet Paul, he keeps the law with his mind, it is only with his "flesh" that he "keeps the law of sin" (Romans 7:25). This is what is called the "leaven"/hypocrisy of the Pharisees.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I think we must realize that Genesis was a sort of 'prequel' to Exodus. Observance of the Sabbath was well established before Gen.
For Christians the 'Lord's Day' is observed on the 'eighth' day, and “fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God."
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mark 2:28 does not say anywhere that Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. It says that Jesus is the Lord of owner of the Sabbath. Perhaps you should consider the context? Mark 2:27-28 states that the Sabbath was made for all mankind and v28 says that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath because he is the maker of it. How do those scriptures say that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection? They don't they only further support the OP that Gods Sabbath is one of Gods 10 commandments and if we break it just like any other commandment from God it is sin.
By your standard no-one can be forgiven because the temple was destroyed and a sacrifice for sin can't be made there. I believe Jesus has every right to change the Sabbath to whatever He wishes and the person who opposes Him is an anti-christ.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
As a side note, so that you know: even if your theology were right, I would vastly prefer to go to hell than to heaven. Or to die, rather than having eternal life. I am saying this so that you save yourself time trying to sell me something I do not want. In the interest of efficiency, of course.

So, back to the main topic. Can you confirm that blowing kids brains off, and working on Saturdays, are morally equivalent according to Jesus?
That is what I can conclude from our previous discussions.

Ciao

- viole
I believe you do not get to choose; God will decide your fate. As for me God and I are close so I can make requests and have some hope they might be fulfilled.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yes, that is really mean. The poor rapist forced to marry her victim. I feel really sorry for him. Looks really cruel.
But who can protest, if God is the most perfect being and therefore knows how to best implement justice?

Ciao

- viole
I believe it comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I believe it comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Cool.
That is exactly what I wanted, in the remote case that your God existed.
do you know how I could secure that today?

ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I believe you do not get to choose; God will decide your fate. As for me God and I are close so I can make requests and have some hope they might be fulfilled.
Well, I seriously hope I do not go to Heaven. That looks terribly boring. I find one hour boredom excruciating, the closest I experience as eternity, soimagine billions ans billions of years thereof. Nope. Hell, anytime.

ciao

- viole
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have come to realize through this discussion that the entire difference in understanding boils down to the nature of how we understand what love is. Those that are legalists see love as something earned or deserved. You have to obey God, for God to give his love to you and accept you. To those under Grace, they see love as unconditional.
A bigger issue for me is how Christianity defines love. And justice, and mercy. And not surprisingly, it manifests as hatred calling itself love. Look at what's being called God's love. It requires obedience, and the alternative to submission is punishment. That's also the love of Trump. And Jim Jones. It's also reminiscent of an abusive relationship: "Why do you make me hurt you when I love you so much?"
Thank you for teaching him very simply that Gods 10 commandments have not been abolished at the cross
Like most theological issues in Christianity, there is no definite answer. You are free to choose to agree with that or the opposite, and neither position is stronger.
I think your "humanism" (Progressive movement) has a lot to be desired.
You don't know what humanism is.
This is a forum. That means you can come up with any definition of your particular type of "humanism" that tickles your fancy.
Yes, and you have, although it has been counterproductive for you, since it caused multiple posters to correct your errors, including me. Because of that, everybody that wasn't already certain will get to see what humanism is (link below).
you are free to be more specific as to your viewpoint as to what your determined humanism is. Please be specific.
I've done that in this thread recently. You responded to my definition by spewing calumnious, atheophobic misinformation about humanism rather than responding to what was written. Feel free to use the Internet. The Affirmations of Humanism ought to be enough, and you can read them in a minute. Here's a link. This is exactly how your posting is counterproductive. By introducing your scurrilous definition of humanism, you make this information available to the thread. Some will save the link if they haven't seen it before.
The prime example would be in the democratic, Progressive California, and with the general Progressive, democratic support of Antifa
No such organization as antifa exists. This is just more MAGA disinformation you have imbibed uncritically, and for which you now serve as the unwitting vector. You might be able to do better. You might be able to take an active role in what gets into your head and what doesn't. Without critical thinking skills, you mind goes where others lead it. There's a nice metaphor in marine biology. Plankton are the creatures like algae that float with currents. Nekton are the larger creatures that swim, walk, slither, etc., and in so doing, choose their direction and location. Intellectually, be nekton, not plankton.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I've done that in this thread recently. You responded to my definition by spewing calumnious, atheophobic misinformation about humanism rather than responding to what was written. Feel free to use the Internet. The Affirmations of Humanism ought to be enough, and you can read them in a minute. Here's a link. This is exactly how your posting is counterproductive. By introducing your scurrilous definition of humanism, you make this information available to the thread. Some will save the link if they haven't seen it before.
Well, anyone can do a google search. Based on my search, humanism is simply another religion following in the footsteps of Quakerism, and Scientology, only that Scientology is more honest in that they are looking for their personal improvement, which is to become one with Satan, all which goes back to when Satan/serpent tried to sell the promise of eternal life by simply breaking the commandment of God. Here is a nice google search link to a deeper dive into humanism. >The most dangerous religion of today: Humanism
 
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