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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Madmogwai

Madmogwai
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
In Christianity, you have to love and worship God in order to avoid Satan.

In your analogy, it is as if you created a robot capable of torturing people, and the only way to escape an eternity with it and go to a paradise is to love and worship you.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?

Interesting statistic.

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And the bible says those 10 were at gods command. So who is the evil one?
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.
God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do. So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?

Or, one could just as well say that God did not create Zlatan. One could say that God “created” free will and Zlatan’s use of theirs was what “created” (resulted in) Zlatan.

Sorry - satan.

Humbly,
Hermit
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?
Who/what stands in judgment of God, and by what right?

And if it's you, then why are you allowing some ancient scribe to define what God does? Why not define that for yourself, sine you feel you can stand in such judgment. In which case evil would be man's doing, not God's, wouldn't it? All God did was give us free will.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.
Are we talking about Buddha? Why would buddhists be concerned about it if death is not real as they seem to say.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.
What if there is no such thing as Satan's deeds? What if everything is just as Buddha has ordained?

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?
If God created Buddha then surely that gives God a free pass.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I realise that, that’s why I’m complaining about people pointing the finger at Satan.

Humans are responsible for doing evil and in the Tanakh God punishes Satan for his evil deed in the Garden of Eden when he lied to Eve about God.
The passage you quote about God creating evil has different translations that are probably more accurate and give the sense better.
Isa 45:6 so that all may know, from where the sun rises to where it sets, that there is none but Me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

Where I come from, most people don't.
This also seems to be the dominant sentiment on here.
But I am aware this is not universal.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?

Many people judge Him but have yet to take action to arrest Him and take Him to court.
Some may feel they are getting rid of His tyranny by attacking and destroying the religions they don't like.
I think it more likely affects us than God, though.
This is how He gets a free pass.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
How wonderful. It's comments like this that make me so happy I don't live in fear of a genocidal god

You and I both. I feel we were fortunate to escape the snares of Christianity and its scaremongering tactics of fearing a supposedly merciful, just, and loving God. As a former Christian, I now have my doubts about whether the biblical God exists. Whether he exists or not, I think he's portrayed in the Bible and even by some Christians as being about as loving and merciful as a deadly king cobra.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You and I both. I feel we were fortunate to escape the snares of Christianity and its scaremongering tactics of fearing a supposedly merciful, just, and loving God. As a former Christian, I now have my doubts about whether the biblical God exists. Whether he exists or not, I think he's portrayed in the Bible and even by some Christians as being about as loving and merciful as a deadly king cobra.

I can agree with that.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?

I think it's highly unlikely that you'll ever find a devout Christian who will openly admit that their "loving and merciful" God creates evil, despite Isaiah 45:7 unequivocally stating so. On the contrary, you're more likely to see some very impressive mental gymnastics used to try to explain away the word "evil" in order to intentionally alter its meaning in the verse. I've never met a Christian who admitted it.

However, we both know that Isaiah 45:7 clearly states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." The New King James Version uses the word "calamity" instead of "evil," and the New International Version uses the word "disaster" and not "evil" or "calamity." For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

The Bible mentions God changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their transgressions against him (Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Joel 2:13). And according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. The Bible contains several other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating humanity, all the animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10).

There are scriptures which claim that God never changes, such as Numbers 23:19, which says, "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said it, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" And Malachi 3:6 says, "I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." However, other verses imply that God changes his mind (Jeremiah 18:5–10; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2), describe God changing his mind (Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10), or assume that God will change his mind (Jeremiah 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9). It's clear that these verses contradict the first two.

Amos 7:3 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord God.

Exodus 32:14 "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm that He said He would do to His people."

Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, he relented on the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."

Jeremiah 26:3 "Perhaps they will listen and each one will turn back from his evil way, and I will change my mind concerning the calamity that I intend to bring on them because of their evil deeds."

As a former Christian, I don't think that anyone should look to the Bible to learn about morality. In my opinion, the following Bible stories aren't exemplary examples of upright moral behavior: forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist; smashing infants' heads against rocks; ordering the death of witches; God commanding his "chosen people" to kill an entire populace of foreign nations for their land in a conquest to possess a "promised land"; or God being irrationally angry and committing global genocide by killing every living creature and eradicating the entire human race (aside from Noah and his family) in a worldwide flood. Is that a loving God?

1 Samuel 15:3
states that God commanded the Israelites to attack and not spare the Amalekites (killing every man, woman, child, newborn, and animal and destroying everything that belonged to them). And Psalm 137:9 states, "Happy is the one who seizes your children and smashes them against the rocks." So much for the biblical commandment of "Thou shalt not kill." In my opinion, the God of the Bible has a sadistic mentality of "Do as I say, not as I do," making him the most hypocritical (detestable and barbarous) figure known to mankind. And this article, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits," has several other instances of severe violence in the Bible.

Despite my criticism of the Bible and assertion that it should not be relied on for moral guidance, I believe that what the Bible says should be taken with a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible, as well as a few stories of Jesus that were copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other pagan religions, as I explained in other posts, such as this one.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
God, as our creator and judge has the authority to kill us also.

That's not authority as I understand it. Essentially it's "might makes right".

With no superior entity for us to appeal to, it kind of has to be that way, but it doesn't absolve God from moral judgement, just from any control or punishment. What we need is a Heavenly Constitution, that God has to obey. That would still leave him in charge, but his actions would be limited. Yeah, I know, that's impossible too.

Afterthought:

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea, it would all have to be with God's permission, but he's benevolent, right? OK, who would write the constitution. Not humans, we can't agree on our own laws. How about a committee of angels (not the fallen ones!)? We'd then need some equivalent of the US Supreme Court. Angels again I guess. Can you imagine it? God has to submit his plans to the Court before acting on them.

God: I'm pissed at the humans, they fornicating again. I'm going to flood the world and get rid of them all.
Court: That is against the "genocide" clause, think again.
God: OK I'll save one family, how's that?
Court: No, the "equal treatment" clause is clear. If you save one you have to save them all.
God: OK, the flood is on hold. I'll think about it for a few millennia. (Makes plans to appoint jurists more in line with his wishes).
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Interesting statistic.

View attachment 71750

And the bible says those 10 were at gods command. So who is the evil one?
How many people lived?
What were the circumstances that led to these deaths? If the bible is the source for these figures, and they are deemed accurate. Then the bible's justification of these deaths must also be deemed accurate.

Skipping the bible stories, the same logic can be applied to childhood diseases and chronic debilitating illnesses. If these conditions are rare, and the good far exceeds the evil, then the judgment that the theorhetical creator of the rare conditions is evil is not justified.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Let’s imagine I created a Robot, armed it and sent it into town to Kill as many people as possible.
Am I not Guilty, should I stand accused.

God created Satan, yet everyone points the finger at Satans deeds, Satan is doing what God created him to do.

So God is the creator of Evil but gets a free pass, why?
As was stated by another poster, the Christian view is that the famous verse about creating evil is not talking about God creating Satan. So, that answers the question from that point of view.

From a different perspective, if the verse is taken in isolation as "truly-true", then each and every word in the verse has signficance and meaning. After analysis of each word used, a person can come to conclusion about how evil was introduced into reality. It was not in the same manner as light, nor peace, instead it is similar to darkness. And if one looks back to the creation story, darkness was introduced into reality as a consequence of the creation of light. So evil was not the intention, good was the intention, and evil is the unintended side-effect.

This doesn't mean that God gets a free pass; but, if the intention was to "see it was good" then that requires the concept of evil as well.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There are scriptures which claim that God never changes, such as Numbers 23:19, which says, "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said it, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" And Malachi 3:6 says, "I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." However, other verses imply that God changes his mind (Jeremiah 18:5–10; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2), describe God changing his mind (Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10), or assume that God will change his mind (Jeremiah 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9). It's clear that these verses contradict the first two.

Amos 7:3 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord God.

Exodus 32:14 "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm that He said He would do to His people."

Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, he relented on the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."

Jeremiah 26:3 "Perhaps they will listen and each one will turn back from his evil way, and I will change my mind concerning the calamity that I intend to bring on them because of their evil deeds."
Yes. This is comething you have mentioned before, and I've been researching it. The pattern is, God changes its mind concerning curses, but doesn't change its mind for blessings.

Numbers 23:19? Balak is asking Bilaam to reverse a blessing.
Malachi 3:6? The prophet is encouraging the audience that the House of Jacob will not be consumed.

In each of the examples brought where God is changing its mind, it's to reverse a curse.

And that's why prayer is justified, and repentence is justified, because they are believed to have an effect on negative divine decrees.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Isaiah 45:7 is one of my favorite verses in the entire Bible.

The Supreme God in my pantheon- who, many might agree, is worshipped by Abrahamics throughout the world- for me embodies Creation, Destruction, and Divine Order over Primeval Chaos.

Jesus Christ- within Christianity- is an exemplar of unconditional love, kindness, humility, empathy, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, redemption, salvation, and deliverance. I completely understand why Christians might refer to this force- who they equate with God- as a “God of Love”.
 
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