Theocracy

[setarcos]

I'm just curious how people here feel about theocracies. Would you prefer that your country had a state sponsored religion who's laws are structured around that religion?

I would posit that the reason mankind is so chaotically discordant with itself and nature is that there has never been a true theocracy to date. The Christian religion suggests that there will not be one until Christs return. A true theocracy has no "middle men" interpreting the will of God. In a true theocracy God's will is directly known and immediately impressed upon all its subjects without question, interpretation, or mediation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So why should others follow the laws and morals of the god that you made?

The same One God revealed through the Messengers.

I see people will eventually choose to follow the councels of the revealed God and not the God of our own imaginations and will do so as a majority, as a united humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

View attachment 71194

The point is, it is humans that are not very clever at peace and unity. God is very good at giving us virtues, morals and laws that build peace and unity.

So mankind can benefit from applying this advice and laws to the their earthly systems of government.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What if they don't have a choice?

What if the rule of man requires you to do things not in line with your faith?
Or the opposite... what if the rule of man prohibits you from doing things that are required by your faith?

That is the current world.

That is why the balance is required. A New World Order is required.

I see that New World Order is already being shaped. The Nations will not long into the future get together and start building the foundations of a lasting peace, which will eventually be guided by the virtues, morals and laws that God has given us.

Note I used guided by, not ruled by.

Interestingly and the ultimatequandary is, this will require humanity to submit to the true King in heart and soul for the good of all.

This is foretold in all the scriptures, in one way or another.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't understand.
Are you saying that in your vision, the elected representatives should be representatives of religions and not of the citizens?

I said "No nothing like Iran, as none of the elected representatives are representatives of a Faith, they are representatives of the Nation".

So it is not a theocracy. The elected representatives are not priests or imams. They are appointed representatives of the nations, who together will decide that the guidance needed is what God has offered to humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

...OK so you are arguing for a theocracy.

Again No. Theocracy is a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.

There is no priests, or imams or any religious leaders in the elected representatives of the nations. I will offer Baha'u'llah abolished these institutions and put these decisions of faith on to each individual person.

The elected representatives as a majority will see that humanity needs to embrace the virtues, morals and laws given by God. Humanity will choose to rule using the wisdom given by God.

Fulfilling the age old prophecy given in a prayer, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We can do better than that. Many already do.

God = Love which contains all possible virtues and morals.

I applaud the many that have already reached the apex of Love. (I would offer no one that currently lives would have reached that goal)

I personally would submit to their rule though. Luckily humanity as a whole has the capacity to know those that Love.

Regards Tony

 

[Alien826]

Can you think of a reason for God to not be silent for some time -- and then shut up forever more?

Frustration?

I get that way about things. Why bother, I ask myself.

 

[InChrist]

Can you think of a reason for God to not be silent for some time -- and then shut up forever more?

Well, I would say it is not God’s plan to establish a theocracy at this time. Rather, to speak personally to the individual. When you look at the biblical scriptures God has not been silent. He literally came to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ; spoke, taught, and left eyewitnesses to testify of Himself. As well, since then millions upon millions of those who have trusted Him testify of His love and communication in their lives through the Holy Spirit and His living Words.

 

[metis]

I would choose theocratic, if it means that only law would be the ten commandments from the Bible.

So much for freedom of religion.

 

[Alien826]

I would posit that the reason mankind is so chaotically discordant with itself and nature is that there has never been a true theocracy to date. The Christian religion suggests that there will not be one until Christs return. A true theocracy has no "middle men" interpreting the will of God. In a true theocracy God's will is directly known and immediately impressed upon all its subjects without question, interpretation, or mediation.

Yes, that would be a "true" theocracy. Direct rule by god, whatever that might be. Unfortunately the god would have to stop giving vague instructions through humans, who don't seem to manage to agree on what those instructions are. And also unfortunately, the ideas about that happening are also based on the vague writings of humans.

In the meantime, we have, and will continue to have, the world run by people who think they know how it should be done, either by references to various gods or to human based plans, like communism or democracy.

I favor the human based rule for a simple reason. They all come from humans, but the god based people have no doubts that what they propose is correct. And that is a very dangerous position to take, as they can't profit from their mistakes. Hey, it comes from an all knowing god, so it must be right!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God = Love which contains all possible virtues and morals. I applaud the many that have already reached the apex of Love. (I would offer no one that currently lives would have reached that goal) I personally would submit to their rule though. Luckily humanity as a whole has the capacity to know those that Love.

This doesn't address my comment, which was, "We can do better than that. Many already do" in response to, "the laws and morals given by God." A rebuttal is a counterargument that attempts to falsify a claim. Furthermore, now you're claiming humanist moral values for your god as well ("all possible virtues and morals"). Isn't one of your god's moral values that homosexuality is a sin? That god's love doesn't extend to that group of honest, hard-working, decent, community-minded people because they sleep with one another. You can call that love, but I don't. That's what I mean by we can do better than going to religions for moral guidance. Apparently, telling people to love another for a few millennia accomplishes nothing, especially when your model of loves include bigotry (atheophobia, homophobia, misogyny) and blood sacrifice.

God is very good at giving us virtues, morals and laws that build peace and unity.

But none that have led to that outcome. It's time to look elsewhere for answers.

 

[syo]

I'm just curious how people here feel about theocracies. Would you prefer that your country had a state sponsored religion who's laws are structured around that religion?

ONLY PAGANISM.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you think of a reason for God to not be silent for some time -- and then shut up forever more?

Yes men cone to think they know better and shut God out.

That is why God promised never to leave us alone without guidance.

Our quandary is to find that guidance and embrace it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This doesn't address my comment, which was, "We can do better than that. Many already do" in response to, "the laws and morals given by God." A rebuttal is a counterargument that attempts to falsify a claim. Furthermore, now you're claiming humanist moral values for your god as well ("all possible virtues and morals"). Isn't one of your god's moral values that homosexuality is a sin? That god's love doesn't extend to that group of honest, hard-working, decent, community-minded people because they sleep with one another. You can call that love, but I don't. That's what I mean by we can do better than going to religions for moral guidance. Apparently, telling people to love another for a few millennia accomplishes nothing, especially when your model of loves include bigotry (atheophobia, homophobia, misogyny) and blood sacrifice.

But none that have led to that outcome. It's time to look elsewhere for answers.

That is the quandary of God given choice.

I can only offer what I have found.

All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So it is not a theocracy. The elected representatives are not priests or imams. They are appointed representatives of the nations, who together will decide that the guidance needed is what God has offered to humanity.

Regards Tony

So they are representatives of the people, but instead of representing the people that voted for them, they should represent whatever god they happen to believe in an make match that particular religion?

You make less and less sense to me.

And you still haven't explained properly why a god is even needed at all.

 

[setarcos]

Unfortunately the god would have to stop giving vague instructions through humans, who don't seem to manage to agree on what those instructions are.

Why "unfortunately"? Yes, a true theocracy would eliminate the middle men...and faith.

And also unfortunately, the ideas about that happening are also based on the vague writings of humans.

This I can see as unfortunate. But then again, I am not God -I don't think?- and can't say I know the reasoning behind such necessities in the unfolding of history if such a being exists and has an agenda for mankind.

I favor the human based rule for a simple reason.

In no instance would human based rule trump a theocracy. What your really saying is that we have no other options since a true theocracy hasn't been established yet, if ever it could be.
Human misery doesn't sprout from religion. Religion sprouts from human misery. Because of this humanity is apt to produce religions that enforce human misery instead of attempting to alleviate it.

They all come from humans, but the god based people have no doubts that what they propose is correct.

And history hasn't shown us that secular rule is just as insistent on their presumption of the best path to take?

And that is a very dangerous position to take, as they can't profit from their mistakes.

How do you mean "profit from their mistakes"? Change their doctrine?
Often the mistakes made in religion come from the failure of its adherents not the failure of the religion.
What secular system of governance is not subject to the same?

Hey, it comes from an all knowing god, so it must be right!

It is a belief in Christianity that God gave humans the capacity for rational and moral contemplation to supplement the faith we all have in taking action according to what we believe is correct.
This is no different than believing your political system is the best one, or your party is the right one. In all cases, whether religious or secular, rationality and faith play a part. It is a mistake to believe faith cannot be rational in my opinion. Though there can be irrational beliefs.

 

[setarcos]

"We can do better than that. Many already do" in response to, "the laws and morals given by God."

Butting in here but this sounds interesting...can you elaborate on this statement for me? How do many already do better? And what laws and morals given by God are you referring to? The ten Commandments?

 

[Sand Dancer]

I would posit that the reason mankind is so chaotically discordant with itself and nature is that there has never been a true theocracy to date. The Christian religion suggests that there will not be one until Christs return. A true theocracy has no "middle men" interpreting the will of God. In a true theocracy God's will is directly known and immediately impressed upon all its subjects without question, interpretation, or mediation.

Who impresses this will though? So we don't have free will?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Butting in here but this sounds interesting...can you elaborate on this statement for me? How do many already do better? And what laws and morals given by God are you referring to? The ten Commandments?

4 commandments are making sycophants for Yahweh. Almost half when there are so many better commandments to add.