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A.J. Foyt Racing changes car number over white supremacy concerns

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Auto racing compared to half-ethnic hipster food. What difference in demographs do you suppose there might be where it might be a concern for one but not the other?
It's called sponsorship Shadow.

Racing and sponsorship go hand in hand.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
To me it appears more the fanbase than the organization. The organization banned the Rebel Flag a couple years ago. That did anger a part of their fanbase.
Well yea. Tradition, not hate.

Nascar dosent seem the same anymore in that respect.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
As I said, auto racing and half-ethnic hipster food. What differences are there in the types of demographs these things attract?
Why not try answering the question.

Is Chipotle racist because they have the 88 club?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Why not try answering the question.

Is Chipotle racist because they have the 88 club?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
It's not a simple answer. Auto racing attracts many who are racist and white supremacists, and the number 88 is something they identify with.
Chipotle, as a faddy, trendy Tex-Mex restaurant. This isn't typically where you'll find enclaves of skin heads, neo-Nazis or Klansmen. More likely you'll find some college kids and middle class white families.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Neither do I over people's paranoia everything is racist or whatever.
It's not thinking it's necessarily racist. They chose to ditch the numbers because real white supremacist do use the number 88 and because auto racing is known for having a part of the fan base who are white supremacists They, AJ Foyt Racing, are snuffing the possibility of any such vermin making that association and attachment with them. Yeah, there is the unfortunate aspect of giving white supremacists a nod they own the number, but it's also understandable from a public relations viewpoint, and just avoiding the question altogether by avoiding the situation altogether.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
It's not thinking it's necessarily racist. They chose to ditch the numbers because real white supremacist do use the number 88 and because auto racing is known for having a part of the fan base who are white supremacists They, AJ Foyt Racing, are snuffing the possibility of any such vermin making that association and attachment with them. Yeah, there is the unfortunate aspect of giving white supremacists a nod they own the number, but it's also understandable from a public relations viewpoint, and just avoiding the question altogether by avoiding the situation altogether.

As I see it, though, the number 88 is apples and oranges compared to the rebel flag. I'm fine with the rebel flag being banned by NASCAR or whatever. But the rebel flag is an intentional symbol that was purposely made to represent the Confederacy; its intent was to symbolize the Confederacy and all its values. I don't buy the argument that the rebel flag is merely a symbol of heritage that can be divorced from the promotion of slavery and Jim Crow. In many cases, the rebel flag stand PRECISELY for those things.

It's fine to ban the rebel flag at your event if you thinks it's a good PR move. Hell, it's fine to ban the number 88 for the same reasons.

But my attitude towards the number 88 is WAY different than my attitude towards the rebel flag. The rebel flag ALWAYS means what it symbolizes. It's not an arbitrary symbol. "88" is a different case. Much by accident can you end up assigning the number to a racing car, a sports jersey, you name it. There isn't an inherent symbolism going on there as with the rebel flag.

It's nut JUST that we are handing over the number to neonazis by avoiding (but, yes, we're doing that too) it's that avoiding an arbitrary number seems a little bit superstitious to me. It reminds me of a psychology experiment some time back where participants were handed an object and then later told (while they were holding it) that it belonged to Adolph Hitler. The participants then began to treat the object differently, even regarding it with disgust. Of course, the object didn't REALLY belong to Hitler, but that's not the point. The point is, at a psychological level, human beings can be caused to regard ordinary objects with disdain, simply because an association is suggested to them.

I'm all for stamping out symbols of hateful ideologies. But we need to be careful, also, not to infuse those symbols with a power that they wouldn't have otherwise had.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
As I see it, though, the number 88 is apples and oranges compared to the rebel flag. I'm fine with the rebel flag being banned by NASCAR or whatever. But the rebel flag is an intentional symbol that was purposely made to represent the Confederacy; its intent was to symbolize the Confederacy and all its values. I don't buy the argument that the rebel flag is merely a symbol of heritage that can be divorced from the promotion of slavery and Jim Crow. In many cases, the rebel flag stand PRECISELY for those things.
When it comes to 88, white supremacist do factually use that number, and since they had people complain about banning the Rebel Flag then it seems a valid concern to not want a number those sorts attach to for ill purposes, because where you find one there's a chance you'll find the other.
And as I pointed out this avoids any possibility of future unwanted questions and associations due to nasty people clinging to a number.
You really have to consider the context, environment and what's going on. Such as, 666 is just a number. But to metalheads and Christians alike it's not just 666 but it is the Number or the Beast.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When it comes to 88, white supremacist do factually use that number, and since they had people complain about banning the Rebel Flag then it seems a valid concern to not want a number those sorts attach to for ill purposes, because where you find one there's a chance you'll find the other.
And as I pointed out this avoids any possibility of future unwanted questions and associations due to nasty people clinging to a number.
You really have to consider the context, environment and what's going on. Such as, 666 is just a number. But to metalheads and Christians alike it's not just 666 but it is the Number or the Beast.

There used to be an auxiliary to Route 66 in Arizona, which was numbered Route 666. Eventually, they renumbered the route to become Route 191. The reason cited was that there were too many road signs being stolen.

Oddly enough, I was driving down that road recently, and saw some kind of auto yard and body shop off to the side, with a big Rebel Flag flying.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
As I see it, though, the number 88 is apples and oranges compared to the rebel flag. I'm fine with the rebel flag being banned by NASCAR or whatever. But the rebel flag is an intentional symbol that was purposely made to represent the Confederacy; its intent was to symbolize the Confederacy and all its values. I don't buy the argument that the rebel flag is merely a symbol of heritage that can be divorced from the promotion of slavery and Jim Crow. In many cases, the rebel flag stand PRECISELY for those things.

It's fine to ban the rebel flag at your event if you thinks it's a good PR move. Hell, it's fine to ban the number 88 for the same reasons.

But my attitude towards the number 88 is WAY different than my attitude towards the rebel flag. The rebel flag ALWAYS means what it symbolizes. It's not an arbitrary symbol. "88" is a different case. Much by accident can you end up assigning the number to a racing car, a sports jersey, you name it. There isn't an inherent symbolism going on there as with the rebel flag.

It's nut JUST that we are handing over the number to neonazis by avoiding (but, yes, we're doing that too) it's that avoiding an arbitrary number seems a little bit superstitious to me. It reminds me of a psychology experiment some time back where participants were handed an object and then later told (while they were holding it) that it belonged to Adolph Hitler. The participants then began to treat the object differently, even regarding it with disgust. Of course, the object didn't REALLY belong to Hitler, but that's not the point. The point is, at a psychological level, human beings can be caused to regard ordinary objects with disdain, simply because an association is suggested to them.

I'm all for stamping out symbols of hateful ideologies. But we need to be careful, also, not to infuse those symbols with a power that they wouldn't have otherwise had.
It's hypocritical givin the arguments made over the American flag by the left. It's no more offensive than watching the General Lee escape Rosco on Dukes of Hazzard.

Flags don't mean anything. Right?
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
You really have to consider the context, environment and what's going on. Such as, 666 is just a number. But to metalheads and Christians alike it's not just 666 but it is the Number or the Beast.

I get it. The fact that people think the number means something makes it mean something. It's just bordering on superstition is all. Bringing in 666 kinda supports my views on that. In a roundabout way, metalheads using 666 whilst banging their heads to "Satanic" anthems kinda reinforces the (erroneous) idea that 666 actually stands for or represents something. (ie. metalheads unwittingly give strength to a mistaken Christian belief about the number).

It's not like I wanna die on this hill or anything. As I said before, I could care less why or how an Indy racing team decides to number their vehicles. But I do think (abstractly) that it's kind of silly to treat numbers in this fashion. The same cannot be said about criticisms of the rebel flag.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
It's hypocritical givin the arguments made over the American flag by the left. It's no more offensive than watching the General Lee escape Rosco on Dukes of Hazzard.

Flags don't mean anything. Right?

I don't get your point. Flags DO mean something. They often represent the ideologies of the territories that fly those flags. That was my point.

I'm sure if you saw a bunch of college students waving a hammer and sickle flag, you would get ALL KINDS of wound up about it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't get your point. Flags DO mean something. They often represent the ideologies of the territories that fly those flags. That was my point.

I'm sure if you saw a bunch of college students waving a hammer and sickle flag, you would get ALL KINDS of wound up about it.
I'd be concerned. I'll have my comments and opinions, but I will never try to ban them from doing so or put pressure to force them in a certain direction I desire.

That's the difference.
 
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