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7 killed in a terror attack in Jerusalem, 2 injured in another attack

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Seven people were killed near a synagogue in Jerusalem on Friday night when a 21 year old terrorist with a gun got out of a car and began blasting away. Three more people were injured and taken to the hospital.

Palestinian terrorist shoots 7 dead in ‘murderous rampage’ near Jerusalem synagogue

This morning (Saturday) a 13 year old terrorist with a gun shot a man and his son who were walking in the City of David neighborhood. The two were badly injured and are currently in the hospital.

Palestinian teen wounds 2, day after 7 killed in Jerusalem
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
that's after 9 Palestinians killed in terror attack the day before
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Seven people were killed near a synagogue in Jerusalem on Friday night when a 21 year old terrorist with a gun got out of a car and began blasting away. Three more people were injured and taken to the hospital.

Palestinian terrorist shoots 7 dead in ‘murderous rampage’ near Jerusalem synagogue

This morning (Saturday) a 13 year old terrorist with a gun shot a man and his son who were walking in the City of David neighborhood. The two were badly injured and are currently in the hospital.

Palestinian teen wounds 2, day after 7 killed in Jerusalem

I find myself wondering what the Israeli government thinks may have led to this and what would be a good way to prevent recurrence. As we British eventually learnt in The Troubles in Northern Ireland, one needs to address the underlying injustice as well as dealing with the terrorists, or one is just sowing dragon's teeth. I gather one of the shooters was only 13 years old. QED.
 
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Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that these excerpts taken from Hamas' Charter add some insight as to why we will not soon seen the end of Hamas' terrorist activities, regardless of whatever Israel does to address wrongs done to the Palestinian people in the interest of Israel's self-preservation and desire to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. And, make no mistake, there have been wrongs committed all around. Hamas, in particular, has wronged the Palestinian people.

Israel must be utterly obliterated:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Jews must be utterly obliterated:
"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

Peace talks are to be scorned:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Religion is all that truly matters:
"It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."

Secularism stands between Hamas and the PLO:
"Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology... That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser... The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies."

Quoted source: Hamas Covenant
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think that these excerpts taken from Hamas' Charter add some insight as to why we will not soon seen the end of Hamas' terrorist activities, regardless of whatever Israel does to address wrongs done to the Palestinian people in the interest of Israel's self-preservation and desire to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. And, make no mistake, there have been wrongs committed all around. Hamas, in particular, has wronged the Palestinian people.

Israel must be utterly obliterated:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Jews must be utterly obliterated:
"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

Peace talks are to be scorned:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Religion is all that truly matters:
"It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."

Secularism stands between Hamas and the PLO:
"Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology... That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser... The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies."

Quoted source: Hamas Covenant
^ ^ ^ ^

Just MAYBE - you have hit the nail on the head :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Seven people were killed near a synagogue in Jerusalem on Friday night when a 21 year old terrorist with a gun got out of a car and began blasting away. Three more people were injured and taken to the hospital.

Palestinian terrorist shoots 7 dead in ‘murderous rampage’ near Jerusalem synagogue

This morning (Saturday) a 13 year old terrorist with a gun shot a man and his son who were walking in the City of David neighborhood. The two were badly injured and are currently in the hospital.

Palestinian teen wounds 2, day after 7 killed in Jerusalem
Sorry to hear that.

May there be peace within the walls of Jerusalem
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think that these excerpts taken from Hamas' Charter add some insight as to why we will not soon seen the end of Hamas' terrorist activities, regardless of whatever Israel does to address wrongs done to the Palestinian people in the interest of Israel's self-preservation and desire to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. And, make no mistake, there have been wrongs committed all around. Hamas, in particular, has wronged the Palestinian people.

Israel must be utterly obliterated:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Jews must be utterly obliterated:
"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

Peace talks are to be scorned:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Religion is all that truly matters:
"It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."

Secularism stands between Hamas and the PLO:
"Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology... That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser... The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies."

Quoted source: Hamas Covenant
I think if secularism helps Palestinians and Israelis learn to not overbreed so that the existing land can be shared it will be a wonderful thing.

That being said, I think that certain Jews would staunchly oppose secularism even if it means that one side or the other must eventually run out of room for their unchecked population expansion and force the other side to annihilation or exile.

That is why I see similarity between certain Jews and Hamas, and therefore have trouble taking what I see as hypocritical decrying of only the other side's terrorism seriously (just to be clear i acknowledge that you haven't done this, but believe people in general should be aware of why decrying of terrorism will only be taken seriously from more neutral sources such as yourself than it will be from people with a pro religious axe to grind).

In my opinion.
 

Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think if secularism helps Palestinians and Israelis learn to not overbreed so that the existing land can be shared it will be a wonderful thing.

That being said, I think that certain Jews would staunchly oppose secularism even if it means that one side or the other must eventually run out of room for their unchecked population expansion and force the other side to annihilation or exile.

That is why I see similarity between certain Jews and Hamas, and therefore have trouble taking what I see as hypocritical decrying of only the other side's terrorism seriously (just to be clear i acknowledge that you haven't done this, but believe people in general should be aware of why decrying of terrorism will only be taken seriously from more neutral sources such as yourself than it will be from people with a pro religious axe to grind).

In my opinion.

You see a similarity between "certain Jews" and Hamas? Which "certain Jews" would these be? I'm not aware of any Jewish organization that has a charter bearing any resemblance to the deadly extremism stated in Hamas' Charter -- which calls for the total annihilation of both Israel and the Jewish people. (Please read the link I provided in my previous post). It is not for nothing that Hamas has an international reputation for being a terrorist organization. I am not saying that Israel is without fault in every case, but what I am saying is that Hamas is adamant in its call for relentless death and destruction.

If you're referring to Orthodox Jews as these "certain Jews," you should know that, historically, there were Orthodox Jews -- the Haredim or "ultra-Orthodox" as some choose to call them -- who opposed the establishment of the modern state of Israel due to the belief that it should be the Mashiach (Messiah) to establish a place for Jews in the Holy Land, and that human effort should play no part in it. Today there are Chasidic dynasties among the Haredim, such as the Lubavitchers, who have reconciled themselves to Israel's existence. By the same token, there are Chasidic dynasties such as the Satmars, who are not reconciled to Israel's existence.

There are very religious Jews in Israel who oppose secularism, though not because of a fear of running out of room for their children (as you suggested). Secularism poses many other, often more pressing, concerns for religious Jews.

On the other hand, Israel has a large secular population, making up about 41% of Israel's total Jewish population. Israel's city of Tel Aviv, in particular, has become a haven in the Middle East for LGBT people -- both Jew and Arab.

Read Ghastly beheading lays bare the myriad perils for LGBT Palestinians fleeing to Israel
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I find myself wondering what the Israeli government thinks may have led to this and what would be a good way to prevent recurrence. As we British eventually learnt in The Troubles in Northern Ireland, one needs to address the underlying injustice and well as dealing with the terrorists, or one is just sowing dragon's teeth. I gather one of the shooters was only 13 years old. QED.

This. Case in point:

Palestinians say 9 killed in the West Bank, the deadliest Israeli raid there in years

At least 29 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli troops in the West Bank this year, including the latest casualties Thursday. Last year, Israeli forces killed nearly 150 Palestinians in the West Bank, the highest number since 2004, including five women and 34 children, the youngest of them 12-years-old, according to Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.

The cycle of violence needs to be broken through actual steps showing a willingness from both the Israeli government and the PA to adopt a two-state solution and coexist with each other. So far, both have been fundamentally intransigent in that regard.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Seven people were killed near a synagogue in Jerusalem on Friday night when a 21 year old terrorist with a gun got out of a car and began blasting away. Three more people were injured and taken to the hospital.

Palestinian terrorist shoots 7 dead in ‘murderous rampage’ near Jerusalem synagogue

This morning (Saturday) a 13 year old terrorist with a gun shot a man and his son who were walking in the City of David neighborhood. The two were badly injured and are currently in the hospital.

Palestinian teen wounds 2, day after 7 killed in Jerusalem

My thoughts go out to the innocent victims of violence on both sides as well as their families: both the Israeli civilians who were killed in that attack and the Palestinians who were killed in the Israeli raid a day before.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that these excerpts taken from Hamas' Charter add some insight as to why we will not soon seen the end of Hamas' terrorist activities, regardless of whatever Israel does to address wrongs done to the Palestinian people in the interest of Israel's self-preservation and desire to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. And, make no mistake, there have been wrongs committed all around. Hamas, in particular, has wronged the Palestinian people.

Israel must be utterly obliterated:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Jews must be utterly obliterated:
"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

Peace talks are to be scorned:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Religion is all that truly matters:
"It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."

Secularism stands between Hamas and the PLO:
"Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology... That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser... The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies."

Quoted source: Hamas Covenant

Hassan al-Banna's ideology has fostered extremism and hatred among a subset of Egyptian groups too. I remember around a decade ago when Islamist parliament members in Egypt were working tooth and nail to expand the influence of fundamentalist Sunni ideology on state law, including widening the application of blasphemy laws.

Hamas' beliefs are an example of an ideological disease that spreads most virulently when people are desperate and looking for any crumb of help. I wish more international pressure were applied to give Palestinians healthier options.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is no moral equivalence between the murder of seven unarmed people coming out of a synagogue and the killing of a band of armed men attacking personnel trying to arrest someone under a warrant.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no moral equivalence between the murder of seven unarmed people coming out of a synagogue and the killing of a band of armed men attacking personnel trying to arrest someone under a warrant.

Justifying excessive use of force doesn't solve anything. I think the core of the problem is what another member mentioned earlier: almost every time such violence escalates, authorities and officials don't try to tackle the core problems that hinder peace and instead focus on partisan business as usual.
 

jbg

Active Member
that's after 9 Palestinians killed in terror attack the day before
The two are not remotely similar.
I find myself wondering what the Israeli government thinks may have led to this and what would be a good way to prevent recurrence. As we British eventually learnt in The Troubles in Northern Ireland, one needs to address the underlying injustice and well as dealing with the terrorists, or one is just sowing dragon's teeth. I gather one of the shooters was only 13 years old. QED.
Should Israel just self-dissolve?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Justifying excessive use of force doesn't solve anything. I think the core of the problem is what another member mentioned earlier: almost every time such violence escalates, authorities and officials don't try to tackle the core problems that hinder peace and instead focus on partisan business as usual.
There was nothing in my post that justified anything. Each case should be discussed on its own merits. This thread is about the murder of seven Jews outside a synagogue on the Jewish Sabbath and on International Holocaust Remembrance Day.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
There was nothing in my post that justified anything. Each case should be discussed on its own merits. This thread is about the murder of seven Jews outside a synagogue on the Jewish Sabbath and on International Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Yes, I agree the focus in this thread should be on the victims of the attack. May they rest in peace.

Take care.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You see a similarity between "certain Jews" and Hamas? Which "certain Jews" would these be? I'm not aware of any Jewish organization that has a charter bearing any resemblance to the deadly extremism stated in Hamas' Charter -- which calls for the total annihilation of both Israel and the Jewish people. (Please read the link I provided in my previous post). It is not for nothing that Hamas has an international reputation for being a terrorist organization. I am not saying that Israel is without fault in every case, but what I am saying is that Hamas is adamant in its call for relentless death and destruction.
I don't know of any Jews that have an open policy of calling for the total annihilation of Palestinians, so in that sense I concede that you have a point to a degree, however it seems to me that bulldozing the homes of Palestinians to make way for Israeli settlers will in practice if not in open policy lead to the eventual annihilation of Palestinians.

Thoughts?
 

jbg

Active Member
I don't know of any Jews that have an open policy of calling for the total annihilation of Palestinians, so in that sense I concede that you have a point to a degree, however it seems to me that bulldozing the homes of Palestinians to make way for Israeli settlers will in practice if not in open policy lead to the eventual annihilation of Palestinians.

Thoughts?
The purpose of that bulldozing is to disincentivize the families from accepting payments for their children conducting a suicide attack.
 
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