By Faith. Why?

[Audie]

Are you not aware that only God is truly objective?

That is a human belief, and it's a human
belief that someone might have knowledge
about the "mind" of this thing they believe in.

There's no trace of objectivity there.

 

[Audie]

Faith points to things that exist but are not seen or to things that are still hidden in the future (Heb. 11:1).

The Creator is invisible to human eyes and the hope that he gives is something that we do not yet have at hand, because if we did, it would no longer be hope.

Rom. 8:24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

That is why it is faith that allows people to be saved. But the faith that the Bible speaks of is not mere credulity; it has to be based on already demonstrated realities and on exact knowledge of those realities. For example, although we do not have direct communication with God, we know that others have, and that is why we study the biblical accounts to learn more about the God in whom we hope and whom we worship.

Exact realities huh. Like flood

 

[Subduction Zone]

The study of history is based on many different forms of evidence, and the most informative evidence is not archaeological but documentary. In the case of the NT, the record is based on numerous testimonies, and there is no good reason to disbelieve these testimonies.

'Subjective evidence' refers to individual evidence, but the NT message gains its credibility from numerous eyewitness accounts. Similar to the inductive methods of science, numerous testimonies allow for the building of up of a picture. The greater the witness base, the greater the objectivity.

If your aim is to undermine the credibility of the testimony found in the NT, then you must, first and foremost, provide evidence that the testimony itself is contradictory and inconsistent.

I believe l can bring a far stronger case against the consistency of the Bahai teachings. The God of the Bible has set in place 'checks' that allow one to see when false prophecy and false doctrine occur.

What? You can't be serious. You need to study the Bible a bit more. What accounts in the New Testament do you think are those of "eyewitnesses"?

 

[Audie]

The study of history is based on many different forms of evidence, and the most informative evidence is not archaeological but documentary. In the case of the NT, the record is based on numerous testimonies, and there is no good reason to disbelieve these testimonies.

'Subjective evidence' refers to individual evidence, but the NT message gains its credibility from numerous eyewitness accounts. Similar to the inductive methods of science, numerous testimonies allow for the building of up of a picture. The greater the witness base, the greater the objectivity.

If your aim is to undermine the credibility of the testimony found in the NT, then you must, first and foremost, provide evidence that the testimony itself is contradictory and inconsistent.

I believe l can bring a far stronger case against the consistency of the Bahai teachings. The God of the Bible has set in place 'checks' that allow one to see when false prophecy and false doctrine occur.

Ah, many forms.

Yes, we have many forms of evidence for
Egypt, Sinai, etc.

The non mundane parts of your Bible have
ONE source.

Checked against archaeology or other sciences
we find that Sodom and Gomorrah, Exodus,
flood, six day creation etc are either zero evidence, or directly disproven.

Your opinion that there's no good reason to
doubt nicely marches the opinion that there's
no reason to doubt the Koran ir book of mormon.

So your telling us about how to do history
is without any merit.

 

[Eli G]

Idolaters of human knowledge also require a lot of faith.

They have to convince themselves that this is the only way they can know reality and that their experts scholars will never be wrong.

Too much faith in something so futile.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Idolaters of human knowledge also require a lot of faith.

They have to convince themselves that this is the only way they can know reality and that their experts scholars will never be wrong.

Too much faith in something so futile.

Please, you are only fooling yourself. Faith is not needed when one can properly test one's beliefs.

 

[Audie]

Idolaters of human knowledge also require a lot of faith.

They have to convince themselves that this is the only way they can know reality and that their experts scholars will never be wrong.

Too much faith in something so futile.

What is an "idolator of human knowledge"?

And what makes you think it exists?

 

[Eli G]

I just said what is to me an idolater of human knowledge: those who think that we can know reality exclusively through what scholars say, and that they are inerrant.

 

[Audie]

I just said what is to me an idolater of human knowledge: those who think that we can know reality exclusively through what scholars say, and that they are inerrant.

What makes you think they exist?

We have a saying that means like,
" a man denounces what he is"

So tell us. Is your "knowledge" that there is
a god inerrant?
No chance you've been duped, top to bottom?

 

[Eli G]

I am sorry, I don't talk to machines.

 

[Audie]

I am sorry, I don't talk to machines.

Cute way to run away from your own nonsense.

 

[dybmh]

After his baptism, Jesus stood up in the synagogue at Nazareth and read a passage from the book of lsaiah. He read from lsaiah 61:1,2:
In Luke 4:18,19 it says, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord'.

So Jesus saw his role to be that of the 'Anointed One'. Yet, he avoided the part of Isaiah 61 that included the 'vengeance of God'. This vengeance was for a future time.

In John 8:31,32 it says: 'Then said Jesus to those Jews that believed on him, lf ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'

ok, thanks!

 

[2ndpillar]

I agree that 'My servant David' is Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ does not appear once, but twice.

It's worth reflecting that king David was anointed by Samuel [1 Samuel 16:13] well in advance of David becoming king over Judah and lsrael. It follows, in parallel, that the anointing of Jesus should occur before his reign, which began from his throne in heaven after ascension [Daniel 7:13,14]. The present spiritual reign, which is partial, is followed by a universal and earthly reign on his return.

To my understanding and experience, the Lordship of Jesus is a present reality which does not bring condemnation on his 'body', the true Church. In accepting Christ by faith, a repentant sinner is justified, and begins on the path of salvation. Under these circumstances, the 'born again' believer is not under condemnation.

In all likelihood there is a false Church, but judgement of such persons is left to the Lord.

Romans 8:1.'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.

You, 2ndpillar, might be awaiting the judgement of God unto condemnation, but l do not believe l am! I stand by faith, and l find that Paul teaches perfectly the doctrine of salvation by grace. I believe l see, in Jesus Christ, the face of God, and humbly accept the 'favour' and grace that proceeds from his throne!

Without the grace of God, we walk in righteousness of man, and such righteousness does not lead to salvation.

Do you believe you are righteous before God?

First of all, no one is "saved" unless they "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:13), in which the "saved' is the "survive"/"escape" during the shortened period of the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). The "saved" is with respect to Joel 2:31-32, which has not happened. You have not escaped death in the now nor the future (Jeremiah 31:30), for it stalks "everyone" daily. No one escapes the judgment of God, even King David, who lost his kingdom, his concubines, and his son per the judgment of God, voiced thru his priest Samuel. There is no "path to salvation", one either "survives" the "Day of the LORD" or they do not (Joel 2:31-32). Apparently, some of the nations/Gentiles will survive, and they will have to show up in Jerusalem once a year and bow the knee to the "King" (Zechariah 14:16). The "reign" as in the "ruler of the world" (John 14:30), is not Yeshua or King David, as the "Lord" David, sits at the right hand of the LORD, until "I make your enemies a footstool for they feet" (Psalm 110:1-2) when the LORD says, "Rule in the midst of Thine enemies". The "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13) is not ruling the nations at this time with a "rod of iron". That is for after the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30). You apparently do accept the false gospel of Paul, the gospel of grace, whereas Isaiah 28:15-18 describes that as the "covenant with death" which "shall be cancelled", and which is "made" of "falsehood" in which "we have concealed ourselves with deception".

In all likelihood there is a false Church, but judgement of such persons is left to the Lord.

Well, there is a false church, known as the daughters of Babylon (Revelation 17), in which Yeshua said "come out of her" or "receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Plagues/disease affects all of the "false churches", who lean on "falsehoods" and "deception" while thinking they are righteous and saved, while condemning others to their "everlasting hell". As one judges others, so shall they be judged. Look at what Biden, the espoused Roman Catholic (Universal Christian), just did to himself.

 

[shunyadragon]

Are you not aware that only God is truly objective?

NOT from the fallible human perspective. Our perspective is diverse conflicting and subjective IF God exists. Objectivity concerning God can only be from God's perspective.

I believe by faith that a Universal 'Source' some call God{s} and by various other names. I do not believe God is an 'object.'

 

[2ndpillar]

A whole month.

It's TRUE that your Sean Penn has crooked teeth,
one eye is bigger than the other, and his whole
face is lopsided.

In China for a whole month.

So don't gimme that " truth" stuff.
It's as distorted as the description of
your actor.

Everything I saw in the screed I glanced thru is negative.

So yeah, dumping.

China does not have enough young people to support those retiring, and there are many more males than females because of abortion of the females. You forgot to take note that I mentioned that Chinese students work much harder than U.S. students in general. Like U.S. students, they are highly propagandized in China, but that is not on the students, because the government restricts the WEB and control media. In the U.S. the students get indoctrinated by their teachers, and wind up being those that watch fake news, such as CNN, and MNBC, which is they indoctrinate themselves. Not to mention that China data is made up, and actually, India has more likely a larger population than China, because China over counted by around 100 million, just as they undercount the current number of covid deaths. 'Grossly Inflated': China Is Lying to the World About Its Population Crisis, Expert Says - Tennessee Star

Forbes states the Chinese Covid deaths are under reported by around1700%.
Part 1: Beijing Is Intentionally Underreporting China’s Covid Death Rate

 

[Audie]

China does not have enough young people to support those retiring, and there are many more males than females because of abortion of the females. You forgot to take note that I mentioned that Chinese students work much harder than U.S. students in general. Like U.S. students, they are highly propagandized in China, but that is not on the students, because the government restricts the WEB and control media. In the U.S. the students get indoctrinated by their teachers, and wind up being those that watch fake news, such as CNN, and MNBC, which is they indoctrinate themselves. Not to mention that China data is made up, and actually, India has more likely a larger population than China, because China over counted by around 100 million, just as they undercount the current number of covid deaths. 'Grossly Inflated': China Is Lying to the World About Its Population Crisis, Expert Says - Tennessee Star

Forbes states the Chinese Covid deaths are under reported by around1700%.
Part 1: Beijing Is Intentionally Underreporting China’s Covid Death Rate

I saw the first dump, don't need another.

Did you forget I live in China, have for
20 plus years.

 

[2ndpillar]

Did you forget I live in China, have for
20 plus years.

Then you should be aware that the CCP controls the media, and restricts Web access, and that the young people are not having children, and have a policy of "lay down", whereas they are not going to work, and that the people who have been paying a mortgage for housing that hasn't been completed are not going to pay their mortgage, which is bringing down the already bankrupt banks. And where do you live in China? Northern China has access to heat, even if the people are too poor in some cases to be able to afford coal, have in the recent past used corn or old clothes to heat their homes, and that the region south of the Yangtze River is not provided with heat, and it gets cold in the uninsulated masonry buildings. The Chinese students in the central U.S. were so used to the cold, that when I went to their apartments, they didn't use the U.S. heating system. I couldn't take it, but they generally stayed at the library, so it was not too much of a problem for them. Are you not familiar with the largest property development companies going bankrupt in China, because Xi cut down on the amount of debt they could create. And now the banks are going bankrupt, and many Chinese people cannot get their money out of the banks and are protesting throughout China. That the veterans have been recently protesting because they are not getting proper retirement payments. Or is the media so closed in China that you don't know what is going on? China is failing as is the U.S. and the rest of the world. The economy of Europe is worse, or at least portrayed as worse than the U.S., although the U.S. inflation rate is more in the range of 12% than the rated 6.5% and the rate for the U.K. is touted at 10.5%. The Chinese have been trying to get their money out of China by paying ballooned prices for property in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, and the U.S. One of my Chinese friends came back from China, working for the Chinese to spend 1 billion dollars in any investment with a return of 6%. Everyone knows China is going to collapse. Even the U.S. with its trade currency is on the brink of a great depression. It is all a ponzi scheme, including social security, and medicare, and without new children to pay the bills, it all comes crashing down, resulting in starvation, and more plagues, and according to Revelation 16, a major earthquake.

 

[shunyadragon]

Then you should be aware that the CCP controls the media, and restricts Web access, and that the young people are not having children, and have a policy of "lay down", whereas they are not going to work, and that the people who have been paying a mortgage for housing that hasn't been completed are not going to pay their mortgage, which is bringing down the already bankrupt banks. And where do you live in China? Northern China has access to heat, even if the people are too poor in some cases to be able to afford coal, have in the recent past used corn or old clothes to heat their homes, and that the region south of the Yangtze River is not provided with heat, and it gets cold in the uninsulated masonry buildings. The Chinese students in the central U.S. were so used to the cold, that when I went to their apartments, they didn't use the U.S. heating system. I couldn't take it, but they generally stayed at the library, so it was not too much of a problem for them. Are you not familiar with the largest property development companies going bankrupt in China, because Xi cut down on the amount of debt they could create. And now the banks are going bankrupt, and many Chinese people cannot get their money out of the banks and are protesting throughout China. That the veterans have been recently protesting because they are not getting proper retirement payments. Or is the media so closed in China that you don't know what is going on? China is failing as is the U.S. and the rest of the world. The economy of Europe is worse, or at least portrayed as worse than the U.S., although the U.S. inflation rate is more in the range of 12% than the rated 6.5% and the rate for the U.K. is touted at 10.5%. The Chinese have been trying to get their money out of China by paying ballooned prices for property in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, and the U.S. One of my Chinese friends came back from China, working for the Chinese to spend 1 billion dollars in any investment with a return of 6%. Everyone knows China is going to collapse. Even the U.S. with its trade currency is on the brink of a great depression. It is all a ponzi scheme, including social security, and medicare, and without new children to pay the bills, it all comes crashing down, resulting in starvation, and more plagues, and according to Revelation 16, a major earthquake.

Another gooney bird making a fly by dumping a smelly load in the dark

 

[Audie]

Then you should be aware that the CCP controls the media, and restricts Web access, and that the young people are not having children, and have a policy of "lay down", whereas they are not going to work, and that the people who have been paying a mortgage for housing that hasn't been completed are not going to pay their mortgage, which is bringing down the already bankrupt banks. And where do you live in China? Northern China has access to heat, even if the people are too poor in some cases to be able to afford coal, have in the recent past used corn or old clothes to heat their homes, and that the region south of the Yangtze River is not provided with heat, and it gets cold in the uninsulated masonry buildings. The Chinese students in the central U.S. were so used to the cold, that when I went to their apartments, they didn't use the U.S. heating system. I couldn't take it, but they generally stayed at the library, so it was not too much of a problem for them. Are you not familiar with the largest property development companies going bankrupt in China, because Xi cut down on the amount of debt they could create. And now the banks are going bankrupt, and many Chinese people cannot get their money out of the banks and are protesting throughout China. That the veterans have been recently protesting because they are not getting proper retirement payments. Or is the media so closed in China that you don't know what is going on? China is failing as is the U.S. and the rest of the world. The economy of Europe is worse, or at least portrayed as worse than the U.S., although the U.S. inflation rate is more in the range of 12% than the rated 6.5% and the rate for the U.K. is touted at 10.5%. The Chinese have been trying to get their money out of China by paying ballooned prices for property in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, and the U.S. One of my Chinese friends came back from China, working for the Chinese to spend 1 billion dollars in any investment with a return of 6%. Everyone knows China is going to collapse. Even the U.S. with its trade currency is on the brink of a great depression. It is all a ponzi scheme, including social security, and medicare, and without new children to pay the bills, it all comes crashing down, resulting in starvation, and more plagues, and according to Revelation 16, a major earthquake.

I sure don't need lessons from you,
whatever gives you the idea you are
a prophet or know more about my
country than I do is a mystery to me.

Or not entirely, since really what you
are doing is just dump #3 in the series of
" I'm not dumping".
Honestly, people in America!

 

[Redemptionsong]

What? You can't be serious. You need to study the Bible a bit more. What accounts in the New Testament do you think are those of "eyewitnesses"?

So says the atheist...called a 'fool' by God! [Psalms 14 and 53]

It's just a pity you haven't taken the time to check these things out. Luke, whose role is one of historian and recorder, says exactly what his undertaking involved:

Acts 1:1-3. 'The former treatise [the Gospel of Luke] have l made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began to do and teach.
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:'

Now l hope the sceptics on RF read these words carefully because Luke talks about 'many infallible proofs'. To whom were these infallible proofs shown? Luke doesn't claim to be the eyewitness, he claims to be the record writer. Clearly, it was the apostles who witnessed the events. And how many apostles were there? There were 12 apostles who spent time with the risen Lord, and to each one of these apostles Jesus' resurrection became an 'infallible proof'.

There were, of course, others who saw the resurrected Lord, for in 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, Paul says, 'he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto the present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time.'

Is it now sinking in? Can you not see that Luke is acting as the historian, and he is using information given to him by men and women who were eyewitnesses to the events recorded.

What you, Shunydragon, and others are trying to do is suggest that Luke's record is just a 'subjective' account, whereas it is nothing of the sort. It's a treatise, in which he has gathered the relevant evidence from a wide range of sources.

What sits alongside Luke's two orderly records [Luke and Acts] are other 'eyewitness' Gospel records. Matthew was an apostle. John Mark accompanied Peter and acted as his scribe. John was the 'beloved' disciple who was asked by Jesus to look after Mary, his mother.

At the end of John's Gospel it says, 'This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.'

So the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, and by Luke, who acted as an historian for the early Church.

In Josephus, we have a Jewish historian whose own history covers the times recorded in the Gospels and in Acts. When the two are compared, there is remarkable agreement, with Josephus providing credence to the Biblical testimony.