JESUS, God, the Ordinal First and Last

[joelr]

one good point.... (smile).

scholarship? I heard something a long time ago, and it shocked me, but thanks be to God it open my eyes. a statement was made, "scholars LIE". and guess what, it was a scholar who made the statement. YIKES!
so, scholarship? it means nothing to me.

101G.

Yes I can tell. Guess who else lies. People who write religious scripture. Including Christian literature. In fact we know for a fact that Epistles 3 is a forgery. The 36 other Gospels not in canon but intended to be real are also known as forgery. So is all the non-canonical material.
So knowing all that forged material exists must mean that the Biblical canon is also one big lie, right? No?? But that is your logic? You said scholars lie so therefore all scholarship isn't reliable.

So your own logic doesn't even work in your case.
It's also absurd to even suggest. Scholarship has to be peer-reviewed to check for mistakes. Most Christiain scholarship is done by believers with degrees in Theology, NT studies and so on.
So to just hand wave and assert them all "liers" is insane and completely discredits your position.
You clearly have NO interest in what is actually true but rather are just looking to forward an agenda. So much so that you will resort to the most obvious fallacies and fundamentalist rhetoric like "all scholars lie" and have zero interest in any kind of honest exchange.

Anyways, what scholarship does have is EVIDENCE. Evidence that can be checked. Your example isn't even evidence because you don't explain which scholar said "scholars lie", in regards to what was being lied about and what was the evidence? I'm thinking you just made that up as if it isn't an obvious deflection.


SO, if you disagree with the assessment of the Synoptic Problem, please explain why the arguments are false.
Besides the fact that 98% of Mark is found verbatim in Matthew and 87% in Luke.

To sum up reasons for Markan priority, the following eight arguments have been given.

(1) The argument from length. Although Mark’s Gospel is shorter, it is not an abridgment, nor a gospel built exclusively on Matthew-Luke agreement. In fact, where its pericopae parallel Matthew and/or Luke, Mark’s story is usually the longest. The rich material left out of his gospel is inexplicable on the Griesbach hypothesis.

(2) The argument from grammar. Matthew and especially Luke use better grammar and literary style than Mark, suggesting that they used Mark, but improved on it.

(3) The argument from harder readings. On the analogy of early scribal habits, Luke and Matthew apparently removed difficulties from Mark’s Gospel in making their own. If Matthean priority is assumed, then what is inexplicable is why Mark would have introduced such difficulties.

(4) The argument from verbal agreement. There are fewer Matthew-Luke verbal agreements than any other two-gospel verbal agreements. This is difficult to explain on the Griesbach hypothesis, much easier on the Lachmann/Streeter hypothesis.

(5) The argument from agreement in order. Not only do Luke and Matthew never agree with each other when they depart from Mark’s order, but the reasons for this on the assumption of Markan priority are readily available while on Matthean priority they are not.

(6) The argument from literary agreements. Very close to the redactional argument, this point stresses that on literary analysis, it is easier to see Matthew’s use of Mark than vice versa.

(7) The argument from redaction. The redactional emphases in Mark, especially in his stylistic minutiae, are only inconsistently found in Matthew and Luke, while the opposite is not true. In other words, Mark’s style is quite consistent, while Luke and Matthew are inconsistent—when they parallel Mark, there is consistency; when they diverge, they depart from such. This suggests that Mark was the source for both Matthew and Luke.

(8) The argument from Mark’s more primitive theology. On many fronts Mark seems to display a more primitive theology than either Luke or Matthew. This suggests that Matthew and Luke used Mark, altering the text to suit their purposes.

So you want to take scholarship off the table yet seem to want to forward all these psuedoscientific wu ideas about colors and Bible code crank?

 

[joelr]

your opinion? .... lol, lol, lol. Oh dear.

101G.

You said:

" Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.""


this is about the enemies of Jerusalem. Has nothing to do with anything else.

 

[joelr]

the Lord Jesus was Before Osiris, see how Scholars Lie. it was the LORD Jesus who made the Earth before Osiris pop into his ... CREATION.... "pop goes the weasel" ....... (smile), Oh this is Just 2 good.......

101G.

Even looking at it from a religious point of view Yahweh was the creator, no Jesus.
HOWEVER, OSIRUS IS ALSO THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. EVERY RELIGION SAYS THEIR GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE????

You are just taking one myth starting at 600 BCE and claiming "this is the true one", which is hilarious because it's as mythical and shows lack of evidence and as syncretic as all the others. And you think that is "just 2 good"???
Wow, your standards of evidence is appalling.

Again, here is a list of some of the creation myths, all as silly as the Genesis myth (taken from Mesopotamian myths).
Osiris myth - Wikipedia

However, the Israelites myth started around 600 BCE and is known to be using Mesopotamian stories as it's guide.
The Osirus myth dates to - "The Osiris myth reached its basic form in or before the 24th century BCE." so is far older.

They all have creation stories that go back to the beginning of the universe and time or even reality. Once agin, you argument (this is getting truly hilarious) is that because it SAYS it happened, you think it's evidence that it did.
"It's true because it says so", so far is your only argument.
That is one huge fail. Yet somehow you find it "just 2 good".........HA

Every religion and cult can make the same claim, because they ALL SAY IT'S TRUE AS WELL.


Sorry, evidence doesn't work that way. Delusion does. So every Mormon can think they have the true version, every JW can tell all other Christians they are going straight to hell, every Muslim can claim you are all going to hell because they have the true word of God.
Yet none of you can demonstrate any truth. Just make claims and state beliefs.

Tip, the Earth is 5 billion years old, the universe 13 billion. None of these fictional deities were around then or now. Natural creative forces are not conscious. Those stories were early humans way of accounting for things. By making up myths.

 

[joelr]

First thanks for the reply.
second, I'm sure I'm not the only one with this truth beside the Lord Jesus, the apostles and the early church disciples.
what I believe is backed up by the bible God's Holy Word. and all the early church apostles and disciples believed the same. so 101G is in Good company.

Yes and Islam is backed up by the Quran, Muhammad and his apostles and disciples and church and they all believed the same.
Same with Hindus, Mormons, JW and BAhai.
Doesn't make it true. Good company is company that bought into a myth 2000 years ago which is what everyone did in those days. It was normal to believe in some supernatural story. Doesn't make them true.

Analysis of the stories actually shows all of the theology is just taken from nearby religions. In this case the 2 religions who occupied Israel.

And of course, another "it's true because it says so".

now all my finding can be checked. and supportive by scripture, and word search definitions. 101G follow the Lord Jesus and his chosen apostles.

so I'm very confident in the Lord Jesus as to what I believe.

thanks for the asking.

101G.

Yes and all findings of Muslims can be checked by the Quran and word search definitions. Same with Scientologists and every other religion and cult. Doesn't make it true.
Your confidence also doesn't make it true. Members of Islam are extremely confident that they are correct and have the true word of God. Their confidence does not make them correct either.

All of your reasons are shared by every religion. When I bring up evidence, people who study the scriptures and historical aspects, including the original Greek and Hebrew, to demonstrate further understanding, you call them "liers". Hmmm, someone is avoiding evidence, truth and basic logical discussion.

 

[101G]

I don't know what that means.

(smile), then don't worry about it.

Prove it. But it's already false because the Bhagavad Gita contains many philosophical truths mixed with fictive Gods like Krishna. The OT has many true ethics and wisdom mixed with fictional Gods and beings.

you first ERROR of the DAY. proof #1. Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." Proverbs 3:6 "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

just as soon as Y...O....U lean to, your, or some or man, or thing understanding, ..... that's when you put the spiritual noose around your "OWN" neck.

proof #2. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."so befor one open his or her mouth, goto God first to see what one need to say instead of again, leaning to some other man or thing for understanding.

let God teach you, and guide you, then there will be no mixing of any religions.

hope that helps.

101G.

 

[101G]

Theology and stories taken from older religions were myth when they were borrowed and are still myth in the Bible.
Provide evidence they are not. Saying "not myth" isn't evidence. Your beliefs don't demonstrate anything except that you bought into a myth.

provide evidence? ok, are you living by breathing, right now? was it not God who gave you that living breath?

Why would I not want to continue? You can't even seem to form a cohesive argument? First, I don't care what Romans says because Paul is just a Jewish person who makes up stories about communicating with a Jesus light.

and you accuse 101G of not providing. A cohesive argument? ..... (smile). lol, lol, lol. Oh dear.

And guess what, Jewish people, even with Christians added on are not "numerous as the stars in heaven". As far as religious beliefs that makes up 1/3 of all believers. So the prophecy did not happen.

what did you say? "I don't care"...... what you think..... YIKES!.

Also Revelation is an absolute copy of Persian mythology. So quoting that is hilaroiusly ironic.

are you sure? let me ask you something about Revelation. listen, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

question, is this two person in this one verse? yes or no. will be looking for your answer.

101G.

 

[101G]

Yes I can tell. Guess who else lies. People who write religious scripture. Including Christian literature. In fact we know for a fact that Epistles 3 is a forgery. The 36 other Gospels not in canon but intended to be real are also known as forgery. So is all the non-canonical material.
So knowing all that forged material exists must mean that the Biblical canon is also one big lie, right? No?? But that is your logic? You said scholars lie so therefore all scholarship isn't reliable.

THAT'S WHY 101G ALWAYS SAY..... GOTO GOD, THE LORD JESUS FOR HE DO NOT LIE.

So to just hand wave and assert them all "liers" is insane and completely discredits your position.

see above, if in doubt. (smile).

Anyways, what scholarship does have is EVIDENCE. Evidence that can be checked. Your example isn't even evidence because you don't explain which scholar said "scholars lie", in regards to what was being lied about and what was the evidence? I'm thinking you just made that up as if it isn't an obvious deflection.

You think? that's dangerous ..... Lol, LOl, LOL, Oh dear.

101G.

 

[101G]

You said:

" Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.""


this is about the enemies of Jerusalem. Has nothing to do with anything else.

how do you know? .... are you a scholar?....... (smile) ....... or are you God and know every scripture? so how do you KNOW, did you say all of this is Fiction, and or copies from other religions? so, you're an expert/Scholar in falseness then? thought so.

101G.

 

[101G]

Even looking at it from a religious point of view Yahweh was the creator,

Yahweh is Pagan. so that's dismissed.

HOWEVER, OSIRUS IS ALSO THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. EVERY RELIGION SAYS THEIR GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE????

how you know, do men know? ...... well then every religion is in error except one..... (smile)//////

Every religion and cult can make the same claim, because they ALL SAY IT'S TRUE AS WELL.

wel,l are all of them is TRUE? no, only ONE.

101G

 

[dybmh]

ok, who is this that came? Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

so who came? and before you answer read verses 5 & 6 and then answer.

101G.

A false prophet working wonders came!

Isaiah 35, ?? Which desert literally blossomed ?? which dry place literally became a pool ??

Isaiah 35:1-2

1 Desert and wasteland shall rejoice over them, and the plain shall rejoice and shall blossom like a rose. 2 It shall blossom and rejoice, even to rejoice and to sing; the glory of the Lebanon has been given to her, the beauty of the Karmel and the Sharon; they shall see the glory of the Lord, the beauty of our God.​

Isaiah 35:7

7And the dry place shall become a pool, and the thirsty place [shall become] springs of water; in the habitat of jackals, a resting place, a grassy place for reeds and rushes.​

 

[101G]

Yes and Islam is backed up by the Quran, Muhammad and his apostles and disciples and church and they all believed the same.
Same with Hindus, Mormons, JW and BAhai.
Doesn't make it true. Good company is company that bought into a myth 2000 years ago which is what everyone did in those days. It was normal to believe in some supernatural story. Doesn't make them true.

doe them no, but for God who is Jesus and the apostles, and his disciples..... Yes.

Analysis of the stories actually shows all of the theology is just taken from nearby religions. In this case the 2 religions who occupied Israel.

no, that's them, not us.... (smile)..... lol, lol, lol. Oh dear.

All of your reasons are shared by every religion.

nope, who say that God is an ECHAD of himself as the First and Last, which is a Diversity?
now post the religion who states that? I'll be looking for your reply.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

one WORD.... "ERROR".

101G.

Two words: Cherry Picking

"Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position."

Cherry picking - Wikipedia

The words: "In that day" occur 8 times in Zechariah's prophecy, and you ignore each and every one of them.

 

[101G]

A false prophet working wonders came!

Isaiah 35:4 say God, so are you saying that God is a false prophet? yes or no.

101G.

 

[101G]

Two words: Cherry Picking

"Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position."

Cherry picking - Wikipedia

The words: "In that day" occur 8 times in Zechariah's prophecy, and you ignore each and every one of them.

Cherry picking? listen, Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
so "here a little, and there a little" is Cherry picking?

101G.

 

[101G]

@dybmh,
in Isaiah 35:4 who is coming. "with vengeance?",
your answer please.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

Isaiah 35:4 say God, so are you saying that God is a false prophet? yes or no.

101G.

I'm saying your lord, is a false prophet, a liar, and a spirit of division not grace.

 

[dybmh]

Cherry picking? listen, Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
so "here a little, and there a little" is Cherry picking?

101G.

YES!!! Isaiah 28:10 is not an example. Verse 10 is a fault! By Cherry picking verse 10 and ignoring verse 7,8,9,11,12,13 you have come up with the opposite conclusion!

Verse 7 identifies the subject: it's the prophets and priests who are drunk with pride!
Verse 8 confirms that the prophets and priests are vile and disgusting
Verse 9 asks a question who will replace this bad behavior
Verse 10 the bad behavior is identified: a precept a precept a line a line a little there a little there
Verse 11 confirms this is bad behavior: For with distorted speech and in another language, does he speak to this people.
Verse 12 God says to the priests and prophets drunk on pride, "give it a rest" but they won't listen
Verse 13 Again the "little by little" is discouraged. That's what *THEY*, the priests and prophets drunk on pride, get from the word of the Lord and *IT'S A TRAP FOR THEM*.

What's the perscription Isaiah gives???

14 Therefore, listen to the word of the Lord, men of scorn, allegorists of this people who are in Jerusalem.

Don't do this "little bit here, little bit there", 101G nonsense. Listen to the entire word. And put down the crown of pride. Stop laughing at people, stop insulting people, humble yourself and stop ignoring scripture.

 

[dybmh]

@dybmh,
in Isaiah 35:4 who is coming. "with vengeance?",
your answer please.

101G.

Exodus 3:15

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.

 

[101G]

I'm saying your lord, is a false prophet, a liar, and a spirit of division not grace.

let's see if what you say is TRUE.
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

see that word "vengeance" there in the verse. another word for vengeance is "WRATH" let's see this WRATH. and who is it from.

Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Lord here is God in flesh as a man,
H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
{also used as a prefix for names}
[from an unused root (meaning to rule)]
KJV: lord, master, owner.
Compare: H136

now this same "Lord", only the L is in cap, because he is divine
is the same "Lord" in verse 5. Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his "wrath.", as said, another word for "vengeance" is "wrath.", and the Hebrew word or Lord here is the emphatic form of H113 in verse 1.
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

well, well, well, the same Lord in Verse 1 is the same Lord in verse 5 which is the same Lord/God in Isaiah 35:4. or else you have two separate God(s), your choice.

but didn't you say,

A false prophet working wonders came!

.

now is it God who came and worked wonders. for in Isaiah 9:6 the term "Wonderful" means a miracle.
H6382 פֶּלֶא pele' (peh'-leh) n-m.
a miracle.
[from H6381]
KJV: marvellous thing, wonder(-ful, -fully).
Root(s): H6381

or is it a false prophet as .... Y...O...U... said. which one?

I'll be looking for your answer.

think long and hard before you answer. or Just Goto God in prayer and ask him for the TRUTH....... (smile)... YIKES!.

101G.

P.S. Read Isaiah 35:4 again, and verses 5 and also 6 ..... (smile)

 

[101G]

YES!!! Isaiah 28:10 is not an example. Verse 10 is a fault! By Cherry picking verse 10 and ignoring verse 7,8,9,11,12,13 you have come up with the opposite conclusion!

your opinion? u know what I say about personal opinion.

101G.