Why the forbidden fruit?

exchemist · Jan 7, 2023

I don't think there's any answer to that which makes sense at a literal level.

I was always given to understand that the doctrine of the Fall and Original Sin, which is fundamental in Christianity to the whole story of redemption by Christ's sacrifice, refers to Man's innate tendency to do wrong. This is something we are all born with: inherited from Adam, if you like. It can be seen as the consequence of an incomplete transformation from innocent animal urges to full moral behaviour. We are neither simple animals nor angels. We are a hybrid, with defects, in effect.

But like you perhaps, I have difficulty believing in a God who would really want us to stay simply animals. I think the story is a way of people trying to reconcile themselves to why there is pain and suffering in the world, in spite of it being created by a benevolent God. That is an issue that has been endlessly debated over the centuries and, to be honest, I have yet to come across a convincing answer to it.

Colt · Jan 7, 2023

IMOP and from my theology

Like many ancient legends the story contains a "kernel" of truth. The Urantia Book revelation presents an explanation that makes more sense when considering elements of the fragmented story presented in Gensis.

* Before coming to earth from heaven, Adam and Eve had been exhaustively trained and duly warned about the restrictions as to how to proceed in their administration as they were replacing the previous fallen administration of "the crafty beast".

* The "sin" wasn't eating a silly piece of fruit; it was Eve asserting her will (no matter how well intentioned) in opposition to Gods will for how to proceed in the rehabilitation of our fallen world.

* The story that the Hebrew Authors drew upon from Mesopotamian legend had been passed down for ages and ages. Asserting her will as opposed to Gods will evolved into "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

* Separate from the figurative tree was a real tree that Adam and Eve used to sustain their immortality, the "tree of life". At least up until they sinned! After the disastrous self-assertion of will, they could no longer derive the special energies from the tree! They "became like one of us".

* The "crafty beast" had knowledge of what Gods will for the pair. "Did God really say".......

PureX · Jan 7, 2023

The knowledge of good and evil is essentially divine judgment. If we could possess it we would be as gods, ourselves. Able to stand in judgment of all we survey.

But we have not been given that capability. And we did not 'steal it' from God in the story of Eden. What we did was presume unto ourselves this divine knowledge, falsely. So that we then assumed that whatever we perceived as being good to us, was 'good'. And whatever we perceived as being evil to us, is 'evil'. And this was mankind's first and original sin; this false presumption that we know what is good and evil via our own selfishness. And all our other sins followed from that.

Note that the moment we falsely presumed to possess the knowledge of good and evil, our own bodies became shameful to us. They no longer measured up to our selfish desires. And then we deemed the whole world flawed because we determined it was not serving our desires exclusively. And hence, we doomed ourselves to labor endlessly trying to correct that judged 'flaw'.

And we still labor, today, trying to force creation to serve our desires, exclusively. Because we are still living under the false pretense of that original sin. As we stand in selfish judgment of ourselves, each other, and all the world.

We have NEVER possessed the knowledge of good and evil. But we sure think we do. And so we have condemned ourselves to sin and labor endlessly trying to "fix" what God had made perfect.

This is how I interpret the story, and understand the lesson of the story.

Redemptionsong · Jan 7, 2023

To my understanding, the garden of Eden contains two identifiable trees. One is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the other the tree of life.

It's important to connect these two trees, because God Himself makes a connection between them:
Genesis 3:22. 'And the LORD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:'

Having a self-reliant version of morality is what God objects to, much as we find in Humanism. In the story of 'the fall', man 'takes' rather than waits to be given. This is no different to the atheistic man claiming that he can happily live without God, and that one day, by his (man's) own application of knowledge, he will find an answer to longevity, and live for ever. In so doing, man will have conquered death by his own knowledge.

I would like to suggest that faith, or trust, in God as the omnipotent creator Spirit, and giver of eternal life, does not compromise but, rather, focuses our 'moral sentience'. To suggest that men and women of faith are incapable of growing morally, is, without doubt, a complete nonsense. To act faithfully still requires contemplation of God's word. As scripture tells us, God's word is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Faith is not for the mindless!

In the garden of Eden, Eve (and later, Adam) made the choice to 'go it alone' in rebellion against God's word. Adam, being of one flesh with his wife, followed her into sin. [It's interesting to see how the 'head' follows the 'body' where sin is involved.] Both were now naked (spiritually), and communion with the Lord above was broken. Why else would the Lord have said, Where art thou? [Genesis 3:9]

The early chapters of Genesis are, without doubt, a prologue to the rest of scripture. In Genesis we find the principle themes that run like threads through scripture. The earthly Adam falls, and only a remnant follow God in faith thereafter. The seed of the woman is in constant warfare with the seed of Christ's adversary.

wellwisher · Jan 7, 2023

The problem was/is human subjectivity. Can you demonstrate that every law of good and evil, made since the fall was derived based via the scientific method? Can we demonstrate that many many laws had nothing to do with objectivity, but were more subjective? Marijuana laws are being repealed because it led to more bad than good. However, it was subjectively thought to be good, before going into production.

The symbolism goes that death comes comes into the world because humans start to make bad subjective laws, that were self serving. They will sell these as eternal good and evil, but they became a way to manipulate, and were rarely a light in the darkness.

Taxation without Representation, which led to the Declaration of Independence, was a law where the King wanted to tax the Colonialists, but they had no representation in Parliament. This was a law that was designed to retain establishment power. It was not designed for the objective rights of all who contribute. It was subjective and resisted and the rest is history. This was always the problem with law. If you got power, you can make laws to protect power for yourself and your clan. It was rarely about laws that work for all; objectivity and human rights.

If you are active in an any political party, do the laws you would like see, benefit all or just your clan? The lure that worked on Eve was based on fear or rather the appeasement of her fear. She thought if you can know good and evil, you can escape all fear, by being proactive. This was reasonable.

The problem is human subjectivity makes people afraid of irrational things, which will require laws, which do not work out for everyone. Law was not made for the righteous man but for the sinners. The righteous person does bot need law to do the right thing. Law is connected more to the evil side of the spectrum.

I am not afraid of free speech and can handle even the taboo words; noises. But there are groups who will melt under the heat of many words; noises and sounds. What type of law of good and evil, will benefit all of us? One law that may work for all is; there is one God and not to have false gods. The false gods of noise and sounds, who are taught to be served with fear and anger, should not be served. Law adds too much forced subjectivity to our objectivity, and cannot be trusted for a valid objective system.

Wandering Monk · Jan 7, 2023

Seems that given the choice between freedom and security, humans prefer freedom.

Wandering Monk · Jan 7, 2023

The bigger question seems to be, why didn't God create humans perfect and immortal, with the moral strength not to sin? I mean God is immortal and doesn't sin. Apparently he did not make humans totally in his image.

metis · Jan 7, 2023

I tend to think that it's part of a myth to teach some lessons versus a real event. If taken literally, the story doesn't add up as being even remotely logical.

BTW, are you familiar with "The Power of Myth" whereas you saw it or read it? In this context, I assume you're aware that "myth" does not mean nor imply falsehoods.

wellwisher · Jan 7, 2023

Will and Choice implies having more than one option to choose from. Animals do not have choice and will, but are perfectly connected to natural instincts.

The lion does not have the choice not to kill to eat, unless humans lock them in a zoo. Humans have will and choice and can chose for the lion, via the zoo and butchering meat for them. But if the lion escapes and gets hungry they will become linear to instinct, again. They can survive better, not waiting for the humans to feed it. They will lose the choice and need to act again.

The problem with choices is we; humans, will come to cross roads, with each option having a different future scenario, in terms of how it will extrapolate and end. Since we cannot know or accept how all paths will end, even if we are told by the elders, we will need to adapt to our bad choices, which makes our brains stronger and more adaptable; learn from mistakes.

Necessity is the mother of invention with will and choice setting the stage more often for neccessity and invention. The brain can evolve faster. But necessity also means tension and suffering.

It Aint Necessarily So · Jan 7, 2023

What I see on this thread are several believers trying to make the myths mean something valuable. It begins with a belief that myths are valuable, and one needs to seek out what that value must be, which is creative interpretation and motivated reasoning. But like so many other myths, the Garden myth is a confused story that must be creatively interpreted to make it say something worthwhile.

I think that some of these myths are explanations for why a good god would do what appears to be harm to man. The Garden story's purpose is to explain why we don't live in a paradise, why man must die after eking out a hard living toiling and why childbirth is painful. These feel like punishments if it could have been otherwise, and so a sin must be invented to justify it if this deity is to be believed to be benevolent. Somehow, this is just and deserved. The sin is a little bizarre by humanist standards, where the pursuit of such knowledge (and all other knowledge) is a virtue, and the story is one of a couple of kids set up to fail.

Another example is the myth of Sodom, assuming it was based in some kind of natural destruction of a city as with a meteor impact. If so, that must be an act of an angry god, and so sins are invented to account for it. As always, misfortune is God's just wrath directed at man for offending it.

Ancient City's Destruction by Exploding Space Rock May Have Inspired Biblical Story of Sodom | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

Then there's the Tower of Babel myth invented to explain why people speak different languages and can't understand one another. Once again, it is explained as an angry god punishing man for his hubris and disobedience.

I've apply this analysis to the flood story as well, a story the inclusion of which is counterproductive to the claims that this deity is benevolent and perfect. Here we are told about a god that makes mistakes, regrets them, and then solves them by destroying most terrestrial life and using the same breeding stock to repopulate the earth. So why is this story there? What are these people trying to explain? Ordinary floods? Why then is this flood global and why does it submerge all dry land, which is unlike floods actually experienced? My best guess is the discovery of marine fossils on the highest mountaintops. Go ahead and explain that if you're living millennia ago. Why are there seashells and skeletal fossils up there? Well, unless you believe that mountains used to be sea floors - an untenable belief before modern plate tectonics and orogeny - the earth must have been completely submerged, and as usual, that is explained as the wrath of a just god directed against sinful man. Many of these myths become understandable without embellishing them from this perspective. Of course they're crazy stories that don't make sense without these additions.

How about the book of Job? Why does God torment a good man for no apparent reason? Probably because good men were seen tormented for no apparent reason. Once again, reality must be interpreted in the light of a good god responsible for it all. Bad things are really good. Apparent injustice is actually justice.

Wildswanderer · Jan 7, 2023

Innocence is not a bad place to be. Jesus said we should become like innocent children. Perhaps we should think of growth being simply trusting God without doubting.

RestlessSoul · Jan 7, 2023

Yep, a metaphor for the loss of innocence, I think. Pointing to a paradox at the heart of the human experience; Animals cannot do other than follow their nature. Humans, being self aware, and possessing the capacity for self appraisal and restraint, are at once closer to, and further from God - being closer in nature, but alienated by the capacity to ask questions.

And of course, by recognising our capacity for both good and evil, we create a tension for ourselves which it may be impossible to reconcile without God’s help; yet we have angered God, by aspiring to usurp his throne, and must now make our peace somehow.

CharmingOwl · Jan 7, 2023

I think the serpent was the hero of that story.

DNB · Jan 7, 2023

The knowledge of sin entices one to commit it (refer to the thread 'Law exacerbates sin'). But, only unless one has the wisdom to perceive the inherent depraved and subversive nature of it.
Therefore, God kept it away from them.

My personal understanding is that the devil knew that such a knowledge would destroy them, as much as leaving a child in a chocolate store, or a teenager in the playboy mansion - without wisdom, the immature will utterly over indulge in such vices until it takes over their lives (one is a slave to sin when it has more control over you, than you of it).

Adam and Eve were not prepared to be exposed to all the potential wickedness that man is capable of, for it can only cause either severe disturbance, or a depraved intrigue.
Wisdom is one of God's greatest treasure to man, it protects, advises, and guides man into an inconsequential and edifying life. Without it, we are all vulnerable to the perversions of life.

God was protecting Adam and Eve from something that, one, they did not need to know about, and two, will only corrupt them if they are exposed to it - as it truly has destroyed mankind.
All they needed to do was obey God in all matters, and they would not have been deprived of anything that was beneficial to them.

Wandering Monk · Jan 7, 2023

God has will and choice, yet does not sin. My point stands: we are not made in his image.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 7, 2023

God already told Adam what was the good and what was the evil at Genesis 2:17
Death was the evil. Deliberately breaking the law carried with it the death penalty.
The good was living forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 7, 2023

I find in the Bible that biblical Adam and Eve did Not come from heaven.
Rather, God fashioned or God formed Adam from earth's dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7
Eve was formed or fashioned from Adam's rib and Not heaven.
The death sentence was ' returning ' to where one started - Genesis 2:17
A person can Not 'return' to a place he never was before. They 'returned back' to the dust of the earth.

The 'previous administration' (of the crafty beast aka Satan) was Not yet fallen as per Ezekiel 28:13-17.
Satan later turned himself into Satan the Devil - James 1:13-15

URAVIP2ME · Jan 7, 2023

True, God does Not sin.
Adam and Eve started out sinless and so did cherubic Satan.
Even after Adam and Eve sinned they still could reflect God's image, His attributes, His qualities but to a lesser degree.
In other words, God "IS" love and we can love to various degrees.
God has wisdom and we can be wise or act wisely to varying degrees.
God has justice and mankind can govern by using what is just and proper.
God has mercy and mankind can have mercy, have pity, on others in times of need.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 7, 2023

God did Not keep the death penalty a secret but told outright - Genesis 2:17
Satan doesn't care if we live as long as we don't serve God.
Mr. & Mrs. Adam and Eve were in a beautiful paradisical Earth.
The Earth was more than just a chocolate store, but more like a HUGE warehouse chock full of chocolate, etc.
Their leaning were only upright, No tempting playboy mansion, only deliberate sin would create wrong leanings.
We inherited their wrong leanings, but since we are innocent of what fallen-father Adam did Jesus is to come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam caused us.

Bird123 · Jan 7, 2023

Stories do not have to be factual. They just have to be entertaining. Can not one find things that do not add up in just about every story written by mankind?

If God did not want mankind to eat apples, why did God make so many varieties?

What's the old saying?? An Apple a day keeps the doctor away. Why would God not want one to eat health food???

Finally, nothing is more American than Apple Pie. Could we really do without Mom's old fashion homemade Apple Pie? Yummy!!

Life is the education of God's children. It has never ever been about punishment, sin, blame or fault. This world proves God will not keep children ignorant.

Do not shelter or hide knowledge from children. Teach them how to deal with everything. In time, children will not need to have a crutch or need to be dependent. This is basic Intelligence.

God's IQ has not dropped. It's mankind who shows what they need to learn through their actions and the stories they write.

I think it is Grand that you question those stories. It shows you seek Truth rather than mere beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Why the forbidden fruit?

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