Truths in Scripture

[nPeace]

The truth about the dead is still questioned, speculated, and debated.
I'm curious as to why, and where persons would rather go to get the answer to this question, rather than the Bible.

Jesus said he came to teach the truth.
(John 8:31-32) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 18:37) . . .For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.”

He also revealed that there is someone who doesn't want us to know the truth - a liar.
(John 8:44-47) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”


We have every reason to believe him, rather than those who tell us what they think, and who themselves may be misled... not only by others, but by the ones who want them to be lost.

Whom better to reveal to us the truth about the spirit world, that a faithful spirit son of God - God's beloved, at that.
Jesus reveals where we find truth (John 17:17-19), and therein, we learn that the dead do not exist in a spirit world. Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 88:10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

The scriptures also reveal that the spirit world is made up only of angelic beings, which God created. Hebrews 1:7; Hebrews 1:14
The majority are faithful to God.
Some of those spirits, however, are against God, and seek to mislead and deceive mankind. 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6

With the majority of mankind, they are successful, because the majority of mankind turn away from truth.
Most don't even acknowledge the son of God. They thus reject God. (Matthew 10:32-33)

(John 8:47) . . .The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”
I'm sure those sincerely searching, will find the truth on this matter... and others related.

However, where do you find your answers to such questions?

 

[Brickjectivity]

It comes from the realm of thought, which is styled the spiritual world in scripture. As they do not have English equivalents for psychological and psychology they use the terms spiritual and spirit. These mean the same thing.

[Jas 1:16-17 NIV] 16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.​

The above is an example of truths not transmitted through books. These are perfect truths: truths which might be corrupted by tongue or book.

Spoiler: Some scriptures about errors we make in speech

[Exo 6:30 NIV] 30 But Moses said to the LORD, "Since I speak with faltering lips, why would Pharaoh listen to me?"
[Num 30:6 NIV] 6 "If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself
[Num 30:6 NIV] 6 "If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself
[Psa 12:3 NIV] 3 May the LORD silence all flattering lips and every boastful tongue--
[Psa 141:3 NIV] 3 Set a guard over my mouth, LORD; keep watch over the door of my lips.
[Isa 6:5 NIV] 5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
[Zep 3:9 NIV] 9 "Then I will purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

Books are written in a tongue, but tongues are considered to be corrupt. They can speak truths, but they are not a source of truth. They are a source of error. The writers write down what is heard.

[Rom 8:23 NIV] 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.​

The more literal translations say "Yearnings which cannot be uttered." Since they cannot be uttered they also cannot be written down. Since they cannot be made external and are internal they cannot be writ.

There is also the foundation of the church which begins with the rock, and the rock is that some things are revealed without hands and without words. No man and no book tells Peter about who Jesus is. I think this is the firm foundation, the opposite of the sinking sand in Jesus own parable. This parable comes from the sections of Matthew and Luke in which Jesus talks about not judging others and only judging by the fruits which he calls spiritual fruits and which we know to be good character. The firm foundation is to judge ourselves by our fruits, not by our words. Only in this way can we be strong enough to withstand testing. The opposite of this is to become double minded.

There remains scripture and some use for it, but it cannot do everything or provide what is needed. It is written language and thus limited. 2 Corinth 2:6 comments that the letter kills but the spirit gives life -- meaning we must think in order to give life to the dead letters. In between the letters must be thinking which which we cement them together in ways that the writers cannot.

 

[Kenny]

The truth about the dead is still questioned, speculated, and debated.
I'm curious as to why, and where persons would rather go to get the answer to this question, rather than the Bible.

Jesus said he came to teach the truth.
(John 8:31-32) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 18:37) . . .For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.”

He also revealed that there is someone who doesn't want us to know the truth - a liar.
(John 8:44-47) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”


We have every reason to believe him, rather than those who tell us what they think, and who themselves may be misled... not only by others, but by the ones who want them to be lost.

Whom better to reveal to us the truth about the spirit world, that a faithful spirit son of God - God's beloved, at that.
Jesus reveals where we find truth (John 17:17-19), and therein, we learn that the dead do not exist in a spirit world. Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 88:10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

The scriptures also reveal that the spirit world is made up only of angelic beings, which God created. Hebrews 1:7; Hebrews 1:14
The majority are faithful to God.
Some of those spirits, however, are against God, and seek to mislead and deceive mankind. 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6

With the majority of mankind, they are successful, because the majority of mankind turn away from truth.
Most don't even acknowledge the son of God. They thus reject God. (Matthew 10:32-33)

(John 8:47) . . .The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”
I'm sure those sincerely searching, will find the truth on this matter... and others related.

However, where do you find your answers to such questions?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who are these people and where are they?

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are these people that John saw?

 

[nPeace]

It comes from the realm of thought, which is styled the spiritual world in scripture. As they do not have English equivalents for psychological and psychology they use the terms spiritual and spirit. These mean the same thing.

[Jas 1:16-17 NIV] 16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.​

The above is an example of truths not transmitted through books. These are perfect truths: truths which might be corrupted by tongue or book.

Spoiler: Some scriptures about errors we make in speech

[Exo 6:30 NIV] 30 But Moses said to the LORD, "Since I speak with faltering lips, why would Pharaoh listen to me?"
[Num 30:6 NIV] 6 "If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself
[Num 30:6 NIV] 6 "If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself
[Psa 12:3 NIV] 3 May the LORD silence all flattering lips and every boastful tongue--
[Psa 141:3 NIV] 3 Set a guard over my mouth, LORD; keep watch over the door of my lips.
[Isa 6:5 NIV] 5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
[Zep 3:9 NIV] 9 "Then I will purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

Books are written in a tongue, but tongues are considered to be corrupt. They can speak truths, but they are not a source of truth. They are a source of error. The writers write down what is heard.

[Rom 8:23 NIV] 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.​

The more literal translations say "Yearnings which cannot be uttered." Since they cannot be uttered they also cannot be written down. Since they cannot be made external and are internal they cannot be writ.

There is also the foundation of the church which begins with the rock, and the rock is that some things are revealed without hands and without words. No man and no book tells Peter about who Jesus is. I think this is the firm foundation, the opposite of the sinking sand in Jesus own parable. This parable comes from the sections of Matthew and Luke in which Jesus talks about not judging others and only judging by the fruits which he calls spiritual fruits and which we know to be good character. The firm foundation is to judge ourselves by our fruits, not by our words. Only in this way can we be strong enough to withstand testing. The opposite of this is to become double minded.

There remains scripture and some use for it, but it cannot do everything or provide what is needed. It is written language and thus limited. 2 Corinth 2:6 comments that the letter kills but the spirit gives life -- meaning we must think in order to give life to the dead letters. In between the letters must be thinking which which we cement them together in ways that the writers cannot.

I'm trying to understand. Not sure I actually got it. So correct me, if I am wrong.
Nobody can write down truth, because nothing written is truth.
So, we have to use our thoughts, because this is the only thing that is truthful?

 

[nPeace]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who are these people and where are they?

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are these people that John saw?

(Revelation 1:1) 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(Revelation 4:1-6) 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

(Revelation 17:3) 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

What these scriptures reveal to me, is that

1. John is being given visions
2. These visions are things that will occur in the future subsequent to John's life
3. These visions are given in signs (They signify or represent something)

So when John sees a door open to heaven, he is not actually seeing a door, but he writes something that we can relate to.
He does not actually see thrones in heaven, and God seated on one. I don't imagine God needs a throne. After all, aren't thrones manmade objects... and crowns, and doors, etc.?

The point of these visions is to give John a picture of realities which are being realized - future realities.
So John get's to see the future played out, right before his eyes, and even more fascinating, he gets a front row seat to the activities in heaven which are directly related to God's purpose and will, being carried out on earth.
Do you see this too?

So John does not actually see beasts in heaven, does he? What he sees, are symbolic representations.
What then does those four beasts represent?
Notice the language John uses...
(Revelation 4:7) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Because they are not actually real beast, and nothing John had actually ever seen, he says they are like this or that. They represent something.
What then about the twenty four seats, and the twenty four elders? What do they represent? They represent something.

Thus, the souls under the alter, are representative of something. Could they represent the lives of those faithful servants of God, who were martyred?
What is interesting about the use of the word soul there, is that soul means life. Soul can mean any one of these... living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion.

So what does those souls crying out represent?
(Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.
That's exactly what these souls require, don't they? Justice.
Their blood symbolically cries out to God. See Leviticus 17:11

When reading the book of Revelation, we must be very careful to note that symbolism is at its core. If not 99 percent, I would say, it is evident that at least 90 percent (although I think that percentage is too low) is symbolism.
This is how we know that the lake of fire is symbolic.
Not only because the angel told John at the beginning, but the angel also explained the symbolism, on occasion.
(Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Kenny]

(Revelation 1:1) 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(Revelation 4:1-6) 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

(Revelation 17:3) 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

What these scriptures reveal to me, is that

1. John is being given visions
2. These visions are things that will occur in the future subsequent to John's life
3. These visions are given in signs (They signify or represent something)

So when John sees a door open to heaven, he is not actually seeing a door, but he writes something that we can relate to.
He does not actually see thrones in heaven, and God seated on one. I don't imagine God needs a throne. After all, aren't thrones manmade objects... and crowns, and doors, etc.?

The point of these visions is to give John a picture of realities which are being realized - future realities.
So John get's to see the future played out, right before his eyes, and even more fascinating, he gets a front row seat to the activities in heaven which are directly related to God's purpose and will, being carried out on earth.
Do you see this too?

So John does not actually see beasts in heaven, does he? What he sees, are symbolic representations.
What then does those four beasts represent?
Notice the language John uses...
(Revelation 4:7) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Because they are mot actually real beast, and nothing John had actually ever seen, he says they are like this or that. They represent something.
What then about the twenty four seats, and the twenty four elders? What do they represent? They represent something.

Thus, the souls under the alter, are representative of something. Could they represent the lives of those faithful servants of God, who were martyred?
What is interesting about the use of the word soul there, is that soul means life. Soul can mean any one of these... living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion.

So what does those souls crying out represent?
(Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.
That's exactly what these souls require, don't they? Justice.
Their blood symbolically cries out to God. See Leviticus 17:11

When reading the book of Revelation, we must be very careful to note that symbolism is at its core. If not 99 percent, I would say, it is evident that at least 90 percent (although I think that percentage is too low) is symbolism.
This is how we know that the lake of fire is symbolic.
Not only because the angel told John at the beginning, but the angel also explained the symbolism, on occasion.
(Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

no... that doesn't quite fit IMV.

Although, yes, it is to come, but notice:

It specifically declares who they are... "as fellow-servants" as also what happened to them... "the fellowservants should be killed"(future) just as they were (past).

Very specific with no allegories or imagery as are the four and twenty elders.

Remember what "was" and "is" and "is to come.

 

[Nakosis]

However, where do you find your answers to such questions?

1. Science
2. Accept that some questions have not yet been answered rather than believe someone has been told the truth by a voice in their head.

 

[sun rise]

Who are these people that John saw?

Very specific with no allegories or imagery as are the four and twenty elders.

Numbers can be tricky and not always literal. The number 40 for example is the nominal length of Lent in celebration of Jesus in the desert. In Islamic sufism, there is an austerity of 40 days called chilla-nashini: A circle is drawn on the ground by the penitent’s own hand; for 40 days and nights he must not step out of the circle, forgoing food and sleep. He must face whatever comes. Those who try it but do not succeed usually die or go mad.

So what could "24" mean? One site says The number 24 is associated with Archangel Gabriel and carries the vibration of divine guidance. In the Bible, I found this: Meaning of the Number 24 in the Bible

Then to get more specific: The 24 Elders in Revelation - Who They Are & What They Symbolize

So at least some Christians see 24 as more than just a simple number.

 

[nPeace]

no... that doesn't quite fit IMV.

Although, yes, it is to come, but notice:

It specifically declares who they are... "as fellow-servants" as also what happened to them... "the fellowservants should be killed"(future) just as they were (past).

Very specific with no allegories or imagery as are the four and twenty elders.

Remember what "was" and "is" and "is to come.

What does not fit... Revelation 1:1, or Revelation 4:1-6... and does not fit what?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Nobody can write down truth, because nothing written is truth.
So, we have to use our thoughts, because this is the only thing that is truthful?

No not what I mean sir (or madam).

However, where do you find your answers to such questions?

I'm curious as to why, and where persons would rather go to get the answer to this question, rather than the Bible.

We have minds, and we have to use these. Communication is flawed, so in the end you must rely upon thinking. In addition some things are only revealed in this way and are not revealed otherwise. As an example Peter comprehends who Jesus is without being told, and in fact he could not have been told. Being told would have been insufficient. I think this is a foundational thing upon which the church is built -- any healthy church. Other churches are built upon factionalism and self worship.

The result is that we should not judge each other over how we word things or how we appear to understand things. These judgments are mere doubts that God is involved. The fruit of good character guarantees that we are making progress, not the appropriately worded creed or the appropriately spoken prayer. I think scripture does support this, and so I have selected scriptures about it.

I also think it is a mistake to put emphasis upon beliefs and teaching systems. These are shadows and forms of godliness which emphasize scripture tests. Fruits of the spirit can blossom wherever, independent of how great one's teacher is. The biggest mistake, in my opinion, is to deny communion. Communion should be open to all who agree to forgive wrongs and enter peaceful living. This is the entrance to the church, and we should not be getting in the way of it.

I think you already are familiar with the scriptures, are you not? Yet there are truths which remain hidden from you and answers you are still waiting for?

 

[nPeace]

No not what I mean sir (or madam).

Okay. Sorry. I'm male.

We have minds, and we have to use these. Communication is flawed, so in the end you must rely upon thinking. In addition some things are only revealed in this way and are not revealed otherwise. As an example Peter comprehends who Jesus is without being told, and in fact he could not have been told. Being told would have been insufficient. I think this is a foundational thing upon which the church is built -- any healthy church. Other churches are built upon factionalism and self worship.

Of course. I agree with that.
We obviously do not just accept what we are told, or taught, without thinking about it, and weighing if it is true or not.
That's gullibility.

So, you are saying that our thought are not flawed in this regard?

The result is that we should not judge each other over how we word things or how we appear to understand things. These judgments are mere doubts that God is involved. The fruit of good character guarantees that we are making progress, not the appropriately worded creed or the appropriately spoken prayer. I think scripture does support this, and so I have selected scriptures about it.

So scripture can be true. Agreed?

We use our thoughts to determine for ourselves, if we accept the scriptures as true, but does our thinking determine if they are true, or not?

If our thinking determines what is true, then there is no truth... at least not in an absolute sense, but rather, what people call, our truth - that is, the truth, relative to us.

In such a case, to you, you may be sitting on a chair. to me, no, you are sitting on a box. Both are truth.
However, that defies logic, since the principle says, A cannot be A, and yet not A.
Either A is a chair, or it's not a chair.

I also think it is a mistake to put emphasis upon beliefs and teaching systems. These are shadows and forms of godliness which emphasize scripture tests. Fruits of the spirit can blossom wherever, independent of how great one's teacher is. The biggest mistake, in my opinion, is to deny communion. Communion should be open to all who agree to forgive wrongs and enter peaceful living. This is the entrance to the church, and we should not be getting in the way of it.

Many share your opinion.
The thing is, Jesus and the first century Christians do not share that view.
If they truly represent God, then God too, disagrees with you.

In that case, anyone who sides with Jesus on this matter, would be in agreement with God, and therefore on the side if truth.

I think you already are familiar with the scriptures, are you not?

I am very familiar with them, as I read them daily, and have studied them in depth, with the brothers of Christ.
Having done that, I should be in a better position to teach you the truth.
Jesus did say that's possible, only, if you remain in his word.

Yet there are truths which remain hidden from you and answers you are still waiting for?

We do not know everything, and never will, but we can know what God wants us to know, and what God has revealed.
(1 Corinthians 2:6-10)

6 Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.​

Since it's to his people that God reveals these things, being in association with them is advantageous, since it would mean, being privileged to understand these truths, as they are revealed... and yes the scriptures does say the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. (Proverbs 4:18)

 

[Brickjectivity]

Of course. I agree with that.
We obviously do not just accept what we are told, or taught, without thinking about it, and weighing if it is true or not.
That's gullibility.

So, you are saying that our thought are not flawed in this regard?

No, I am not but that scripture must pass through our thoughts in order to be complete and that sometimes scripture cannot tell us what we need to know.

So scripture can be true. Agreed?

I do not, because it is in human language. Now we see as through a brown glass, and that is what the scripture is like taking into account our ability to communicate. Its our window. It is an emanation of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit just like there are dispensations of it upon Sampson or upon Peter. Scripture is like us. It is alive like we are. We are imperfect, yet we are given life. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Therefore we try to intake the spirit of the scripture into ourselves.

We use our thoughts to determine for ourselves, if we accept the scriptures as true, but does our thinking determine if they are true, or not?

If our thinking determines what is true, then there is no truth... at least not in an absolute sense, but rather, what people call, our truth - that is, the truth, relative to us.

In such a case, to you, you may be sitting on a chair. to me, no, you are sitting on a box. Both are truth.
However, that defies logic, since the principle says, A cannot be A, and yet not A.
Either A is a chair, or it's not a chair.

The problem with that argument is the assumption that we are perfect enough, but we are flawed. We're too flawed to become judges of one another determining who is or isn't scriptural. This is boasting and a form of idolatry, and it weakens us. It is not our job to determine who is or isn't a tare and who is or isn't a goat. Perfect love drives out fear.

Many share your opinion.
The thing is, Jesus and the first century Christians do not share that view.
If they truly represent God, then God too, disagrees with you.

In that case, anyone who sides with Jesus on this matter, would be in agreement with God, and therefore on the side if truth.

Go on and do everything James says you shouldn't. Don't let me stop you. Tell me again that you are representing God to me. Its Jesus who says "He who is not against us is for us" and "Whoever does not gather with me scatters."

I am very familiar with them, as I read them daily, and have studied them in depth, with the brothers of Christ.
Having done that, I should be in a better position to teach you the truth.
Jesus did say that's possible, only, if you remain in his word.

A brother offended is like a castle with a moat, and that is what many groups are like. "Halt who goes there?! If you're one of us say 'Shibboleth'! Say it right or you die!" No, you can't take communion here. No, you aren't one of us until you have ascribed to our common verbal agreements and have scraped your skin with porcelain from heaven!

 

[Valjean]

The truth about the dead is still questioned, speculated, and debated.
I'm curious as to why, and where persons would rather go to get the answer to this question, rather than the Bible.

I'd go to a verifiable source of evidence; something observable, consilient, testable, hopefully falsifiable. I'd be skeptical of 2nd hand testimony, fantastical claims that would be disbelieved by today's auditors, or that violated scientific possibility.

Jesus said he came to teach the truth.
(John 8:31-32) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 18:37) . . .For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.”

He also revealed that there is someone who doesn't want us to know the truth - a liar.
(John 8:44-47) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

Why are you quoting only the Bible? Have you considered what the Gita or Guru Granth say about it?

We have every reason to believe him, rather than those who tell us what they think, and who themselves may be misled... not only by others, but by the ones who want them to be lost.

Why should we believe any source that doesn't involve repeatable observation, measurements, or at least verifiable, first hand accounts?
At least the dharmic religions can produce occasional, actual, living witnesses to previous lives, who can demonstrate knowledge of a previous life s/he'd have no obvious way of knowing.

Whom better to reveal to us the truth about the spirit world, that a faithful spirit son of God - God's beloved, at that.

How would you verify his status as such, and, even if verified, how would you empirically verify his claims?

Jesus reveals where we find truth (John 17:17-19), and therein, we learn that the dead do not exist in a spirit world. Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 88:10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18
The scriptures also reveal that the spirit world is made up only of angelic beings, which God created. Hebrews 1:7; Hebrews 1:14
The majority are faithful to God.
Some of those spirits, however, are against God, and seek to mislead and deceive mankind. 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6

The scriptures may claim these things, but other scriptures claim other things. Moreover, the claims aren't testable or evidenced; noöne has photos or measurements of these angels or spirits. Other religions' scriptures claim all sorts of incorporeal beings. Why are they less credible than the Biblical pantheon?

With the majority of mankind, they are successful, because the majority of mankind turn away from truth.
Most don't even acknowledge the son of God. They thus reject God. (Matthew 10:32-33)

The majority believe whatever folklore they're fed before they become rational thinkers. A few learn to think and reason, and go on to critically analyze the strength of religious claims.

(John 8:47) . . .The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

You're presupposing God, and why do you keep quoting the Bible? You seem to be using biblical quotations as evidence of biblical veracity.

I'm sure those sincerely searching, will find the truth on this matter... and others related.

However, where do you find your answers to such questions?

Many of us have not found answers to such questions.

 

[nPeace]

No, I am not but that scripture must pass through our thoughts in order to be complete and that sometimes scripture cannot tell us what we need to know.

What do we need to know? Please name one thing we need to know, which scripture does not reveal.

I do not, because it is in human language. Now we see as through a brown glass, and that is what the scripture is like taking into account our ability to communicate. Its our window. It is an emanation of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit just like there are dispensations of it upon Sampson or upon Peter. Scripture is like us. It is alive like we are. We are imperfect, yet we are given life. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Therefore we try to intake the spirit of the scripture into ourselves.

So, are you saying, God needs to audibly communicate with you, in order for you to accept it? You are not saying human communication is bad, are you?
You seem to be deciding, by your own thinking, what God should do. Is that the case?

In a case like that, where would that leave one, if God says this is the way I do it - my way... which is the case (Hebrews 1:1, 2).
Actually, all the men God communicated with, wrote down God's message, so human language was always used.
Many people, using their understanding, agree that this is a proper form of communication.

True, one has to be careful that those they listen to, and learn from, are truly God's messengers, but there is a beautiful benefit in that. It exposes pride.
It's easy for a person to give everyone the picture that they are so sincere in searching for God, but that can be tested, and it usually falls down when it involves listening to others (appointed ones), and learning from them.

There are some examples of this, from which we can learn lessons.

Spoiler: Examples

(Numbers 16:2-3) 2 And they proceeded to rise up before Moses, they and two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly, summoned ones of the meeting, men of fame. 3 So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “That is enough of YOU, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should YOU lift yourselves up above the congregation of Jehovah?”
(Matthew 13:53-57) 53 When Jesus had finished these illustrations, he departed from there. 54 After coming into his home territory, he began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said: “Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Where, then, did he get all of this?” 57 So they began to stumble because of him. But Jesus said to them: “A prophet is not without honor except in his home territory and in his own house.”

The problem with that argument is the assumption that we are perfect enough, but we are flawed. We're too flawed to become judges of one another determining who is or isn't scriptural. This is boasting and a form of idolatry, and it weakens us. It is not our job to determine who is or isn't a tare and who is or isn't a goat. Perfect love drives out fear.

Sheep and goats are not determined by us. That is correct. Matthew 25
Simply because they are determined on judgment day, and thus that determination is reserved for the king and judge, Jesus Christ.

Your argument has a number of "gaping holes', though.
First it says that nobody can know what is true in any given matter.
Second, it says that no one is accountable for doing anything contrary to such truth... (because in ones mind, there is none).
Which thirdly, is really a mask to cover, or excuse a neutral position - sitting on the fence, we call it.

If truth could not be determined, then everything Jesus said, is rendered void - of no use, or importance... which is exactly what Satan is about.
Jesus said...
". . .the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23-24)

“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32)

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)

". . .For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate said to him: “What is truth?”. . . (John 18:37, 38)
etc...

Go on and do everything James says you shouldn't. Don't let me stop you. Tell me again that you are representing God to me. Its Jesus who says "He who is not against us is for us" and "Whoever does not gather with me scatters."

I'm glad you are able to quote scriptures, which shows you are familiar with them. That is good.
Isn't it good to know what it means to be "against us"? What does that mean to you?

Jesus said... “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." (Matthew 7:21)

Clearly, more is involved than saying we belong to Christ.
What I find interesting in that verse, is that it shows one must know the will of God... because it's impossible to do God's will, if one does not know what's involved.
So would you agree, one must know the truth concerning the will of God?

After all, if two blind men are walking down the road, we wouldn't expect one to be able to help the other know there is a pit in front of them... Having a stick or an assist dog would help... or a guide.

Likewise, if one does not know the truth, hardly can they help another who is in that same position.
If there is somone there who can help, then who would refuse?
I always admire the humility of that Ethiopian mentioned in Acts 8:31.

. . .“Really, how could I ever do so [understand] unless someone guided me?”. . .

A brother offended is like a castle with a moat, and that is what many groups are like.

True. ...and masses of individuals, as well. Some are trying to protect their pride Groups not excluded. I agree.

"Halt who goes there?! If you're one of us say 'Shibboleth'! Say it right or you die!" No, you can't take communion here. No, you aren't one of us until you have ascribed to our common verbal agreements and have scraped your skin with porcelain from heaven!

“Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3)
"I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise be destroyed. . ." (Luke 13:3)

Am I to understand you don't like Jesus' expressions, or are you saying that groups make unscriptural demands?
What are you trying to say here?

I think we have to make up our mind if we will follow Jesus or not. He is Lord... but just saying it, doesn't really help us.
Not sure if you agree.

You identify your religion as "liber-scripta grim Christian".
Hope you don't mind my asking... what exactly is that? What does it actually mean?

 

[nPeace]

I'd go to a verifiable source of evidence; something observable, consilient, testable, hopefully falsifiable.

Never have I observed a whale evolve from a small 'dog'. Have you?

I'd be skeptical of 2nd hand testimony, fantastical claims that would be disbelieved by today's auditors, or that violated scientific possibility.

You don't show that to be the case - so willing to believe fanciful stories of all life evolving from LUCA.
I find it interesting that even thousands of today's scientists are skeptical about those claimed scientific possibilities.

Also, Biblical archaeology is a science, which does provide verifiable source of evidence.
Of course, observing the past is not possible, as in the case with the origin of life, but certainly. if you accept claims about the origin of species, then I find it hard to understand why you find it hard to accept that the Bible contains truthful answers.

Why are you quoting only the Bible? Have you considered what the Gita or Guru Granth say about it?

If you provide any good evidence for the Gita or Guru Granth being of divine origin, I'd be sure to look at them more closely. However, from the little I know of them, they all are authored by people who say they were not inspired, but wrote what they think.
In fact, they outright tell you they don't know, and like the science text books, use language like maybe, probably, etc.
Not so the Bible.

Not only does the authors of the Bible tell us these things are true, they provide reasons for conviction, and then we find confirmation in what we observe, both in the past, and the present.
Therefore, I quote the Bible as truth.
Hence my questions in the OP.

Why should we believe any source that doesn't involve repeatable observation, measurements, or at least verifiable, first hand accounts?

Why do you? I ask again. What first hand account of a 'dog' evolving to a whale, did you witness, and when did you observe it? Why not repeat it, so we can measure it?

At least the dharmic religions can produce occasional, actual, living witnesses to previous lives, who can demonstrate knowledge of a previous life s/he'd have no obvious way of knowing.

Huh? You believe that?

How would you verify his status as such, and, even if verified, how would you empirically verify his claims?

Past and present lives, events, and activities. Clear, undeniable evidence.

The scriptures may claim these things, but other scriptures claim other things. Moreover, the claims aren't testable or evidenced; noöne has photos or measurements of these angels or spirits.

I would not agree that they aren't evidenced or testable, but you are correct, we don't have photos, but I don't expect you to have photos of Dark Matter either.
...and no, science methods are limited in testing these. They don't bother. You don't think they can, do you?

Other religions' scriptures claim all sorts of incorporeal beings. Why are they less credible than the Biblical pantheon?

Do you mean like mythological stories?
I have a meeting to attend shortly, so I will explain the difference later.

The majority believe whatever folklore they're fed before they become rational thinkers. A few learn to think and reason, and go on to critically analyze the strength of religious claims.

They actually go from one extreme to another, actually.
From being gullible, to being more gullible... only they hold on to what appeals to them.
I would not call that rational thinking. It's more like saying, "I'll accept what less confusing to me."

That's understandable, I would probably have done the same, if God had not shown me another option... one without the confusion.

You're presupposing God, and why do you keep quoting the Bible? You seem to be using biblical quotations as evidence of biblical veracity.

No. This is a Biblical debate forum. What else would I use.
I'm quoting the Bible, not to prove the Bible. Providing proof would be for another thread... which was already done.

Many of us have not found answers to such questions.

That seems to be the case. I understand.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You identify your religion as "liber-scripta grim Christian".
Hope you don't mind my asking... what exactly is that? What does it actually mean?

I made up the term, but I don't want to derail the thread. I think scripture teaches not to be fundamentalists; but I think discussions about and from the bible scriptures are important ones to have. I also have a grim view of the preacher-congregation model. Its a different topic though.

“Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3)
"I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise be destroyed. . ." (Luke 13:3)

Am I to understand you don't like Jesus' expressions, or are you saying that groups make unscriptural demands?
What are you trying to say here?

I think we have to make up our mind if we will follow Jesus or not. He is Lord... but just saying it, doesn't really help us.
Not sure if you agree.

I'm saying that Christians generally in modern times are putting up barriers to people who would otherwise seek to be Jesus disciples. I say let everyone be in church without having to listen to long lectures about what to think and believe or take surveys or prove they believe things with talk and saying 'Yes'.

After all, if two blind men are walking down the road, we wouldn't expect one to be able to help the other know there is a pit in front of them... Having a stick or an assist dog would help... or a guide.

Likewise, if one does not know the truth, hardly can they help another who is in that same position.
If there is somone there who can help, then who would refuse?
I always admire the humility of that Ethiopian mentioned in Acts 8:31.

. . .“Really, how could I ever do so [understand] unless someone guided me?”. . .

If one man says to the other "You have a splinter in your eye" but has a log in his own eye, isn't he just imagining things? Perhaps that sounds like an odd thing for me to say, but Jesus says something similar.

Paul suggests the God of Peace will crush Satan if we oppose divisions and avoid those who sponsor divisions. (Romans 16) Instead groups (perhaps yours) act as if God won't crush Satan unless we separate from those who disagree with us or don't confess the correct things with our mouths. There are rules about who is or isn't a Christian, who is or isn't saved, who is or isn't following doctrines; and these rules are considered paramount instead of love, fellowship, hospitality, faithfulness and service.

Most say we must collect under common beliefs and understandings and make sure our children are taught them, too. They even deny children the choice of what to think. This is not in accordance with scripture. It is antichristian. Jews heavily train their children, but Christians believe (as Jesus says) that the holy spirit completes their training. These tests are wrong and should no longer be implemented, but the cowardly behavior prevails and fails. I'm in favor of good parenting but not cowardly fencing.

Jesus said... “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." (Matthew 7:21)

Clearly, more is involved than saying we belong to Christ.
What I find interesting in that verse, is that it shows one must know the will of God... because it's impossible to do God's will, if one does not know what's involved.
So would you agree, one must know the truth concerning the will of God?

Truth follows love, not love truth. The tent must follow the glory, not the glory the tent. Moses leads and Aaron is his prophet.

I'm glad you are able to quote scriptures, which shows you are familiar with them. That is good.
Isn't it good to know what it means to be "against us"? What does that mean to you?

Jesus Logos (word) in John is love. He is preaching that the time has come when all who come near to the temple are made holy. (Zechariah 14) The bells on the horses and the people and the food. Peter expands upon this saying that the temple is we who are its living stones. Whoever opposes this is 'Against us'. Whoever keeps putting up barriers and denying entrance is against. Whoever is saying not to touch lepers and to fear that which leprousy represents. Whoever is saying that the dirty little uneducated children are not of the kingdom of God, they are against Jesus. Whoever is saying that the spirit must come in particular ways and not like the wind is against Jesus. I think you know the scripture verses I am alluding to.

If truth could not be determined, then everything Jesus said, is rendered void - of no use, or importance... which is exactly what Satan is about.
Jesus said...
". . .the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23-24)

“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32)

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)

". . .For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate said to him: “What is truth?”. . . (John 18:37, 38)
etc...

"Your word is truth" from the gospel of John. "Your Logos is truth," and what logos is that? It is love. John begins with a story in which the greater is baptized by the lesser, turning the master-student relationship upon its head. The son raises the father, the student baptizes the teacher. Love is the new teacher.

Sheep and goats are not determined by us. That is correct. Matthew 25
Simply because they are determined on judgment day, and thus that determination is reserved for the king and judge, Jesus Christ.

Your argument has a number of "gaping holes', though.
First it says that nobody can know what is true in any given matter.
Second, it says that no one is accountable for doing anything contrary to such truth... (because in ones mind, there is none).
Which thirdly, is really a mask to cover, or excuse a neutral position - sitting on the fence, we call it.

True, one has to be careful that those they listen to, and learn from, are truly God's messengers, but there is a beautiful benefit in that. It exposes pride.
It's easy for a person to give everyone the picture that they are so sincere in searching for God, but that can be tested, and it usually falls down when it involves listening to others (appointed ones), and learning from them.

There are some examples of this, from which we can learn lessons.

So, are you saying, God needs to audibly communicate with you, in order for you to accept it? You are not saying human communication is bad, are you?
You seem to be deciding, by your own thinking, what God should do. Is that the case?

In a case like that, where would that leave one, if God says this is the way I do it - my way... which is the case (Hebrews 1:1, 2).
Actually, all the men God communicated with, wrote down God's message, so human language was always used.
Many people, using their understanding, agree that this is a proper form of communication.

What do we need to know? Please name one thing we need to know, which scripture does not reveal.

I'll reply to these in the next post.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Sheep and goats are not determined by us. That is correct. Matthew 25
Simply because they are determined on judgment day, and thus that determination is reserved for the king and judge, Jesus Christ.

Your argument has a number of "gaping holes', though.
First it says that nobody can know what is true in any given matter.
Second, it says that no one is accountable for doing anything contrary to such truth... (because in ones mind, there is none).
Which thirdly, is really a mask to cover, or excuse a neutral position - sitting on the fence, we call it.

All I'm saying is not to judge other disciples of Jesus. Lower the barriers and let people fellowship together. Stop testing everyone to see if they have the requisite knowledge necessary. Let people have different thoughts about doctrines and creeds, and trust God to make up for the lack. I'm not saying to put up with bad character.

True, one has to be careful that those they listen to, and learn from, are truly God's messengers, but there is a beautiful benefit in that. It exposes pride.
It's easy for a person to give everyone the picture that they are so sincere in searching for God, but that can be tested, and it usually falls down when it involves listening to others (appointed ones), and learning from them.

There are some examples of this, from which we can learn lessons.

Each person has a facility with which they may inquire of God. If they didn't they wouldn't inquire of scripture at all or look anywhere for answers at all. Why must they receive messengers?

I think you misunderstand what prophets are, and that is why we disagree on this point. You think they are messengers. I think they are protesters. I refer to Ezekiel's vision, because you take it as a message. I think it is less of a message and more of a hopeful vision, but I Peter refers to it as something we are part of. So it is no longer merely a vision but something Christians are required to make true. We are to be this temple.

So, are you saying, God needs to audibly communicate with you, in order for you to accept it? You are not saying human communication is bad, are you?
You seem to be deciding, by your own thinking, what God should do. Is that the case?

In a case like that, where would that leave one, if God says this is the way I do it - my way... which is the case (Hebrews 1:1, 2).
Actually, all the men God communicated with, wrote down God's message, so human language was always used.
Many people, using their understanding, agree that this is a proper form of communication.

What I am not doing is deciding for others what God says to them. Its one thing to accept what God says. It is another to require that my understanding be accepted by those around me. They are God's servants not mine. I speak of Christianity where the temple is made of people, cut stones of different sizes and shapes all fitting together. I speak of a temple which has been announced and a vision of Ezekiel that is for us now. Anyone who comes anywhere near to this temple is made holy. We do not become leprous when we are touched. Instead the leper is cleansed. The pagans do not make us pagan. They become Christian by coming near to us. What remains is to destroy that within us which fears and opposes unity in Christ, and we call this antichrist.

But the role of scripture is not nothing. It is still important. This is I think what the canon tells us, but it is also evident.

What do we need to know? Please name one thing we need to know, which scripture does not reveal.

Practical things usually. For example it doesn't tell us how to play like David. Jesus points out that his disciples will not be taught everything by him, so why should our experience be different? There is no "How to be Christian" manual sufficient that you can read it and know what you need.

 

[nPeace]

I made up the term, but I don't want to derail the thread. I think scripture teaches not to be fundamentalists; but I think discussions about and from the bible scriptures are important ones to have. I also have a grim view of the preacher-congregation model. Its a different topic though.

Since the thread is titled "Truths in Scripture", this is the right thread to discuss whether made up things has any basis at all, as opposed to scripture. Especially if one claims to accept scripture.
What's a fundamentalist to you? I hear that applied to so many things, in the same way people apply cult.

I'm saying that Christians generally in modern times are putting up barriers to people who would otherwise seek to be Jesus disciples. I say let everyone be in church without having to listen to long lectures about what to think and believe or take surveys or prove they believe things with talk and saying 'Yes'.

I translate that to, "Let's water down and adulterate the word."
Did I get it right?

It reminds me of scriptures such as...
Jeremiah 23:25-32; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3 - For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.

Since you are familiar with the scripture, I am sure you are aware that prophet were told to speak only what is good to the listeners, but they refused, and spoke God's word.
Here is one example...

(2 Chronicles 18:6-15) 6 But Jehoshaphat said: “Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah still? Then let us inquire through him.” 7 At that the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat: “There is still one man through whom to inquire of Jehovah, but I myself certainly hate him, for he is prophesying concerning me, not for good, but, all his days, for bad. He is Micaiah the son of Imlah.” However, Jehoshaphat said: “Do not let the king say a thing like that.”
12 And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spoke to him, saying: “Look! The words of the prophets are unanimously of good to the king; and let your word, please, become like one of them and you must speak good.” 13 But Micaiah said: “As Jehovah is living, what my God will say, that is what I shall speak.”

That's being faithful to God, isn't it?
Watering down God's word, in order to tickle itching ears is being unfaithful.

If one man says to the other "You have a splinter in your eye" but has a log in his own eye, isn't he just imagining things? Perhaps that sounds like an odd thing for me to say, but Jesus says something similar.

I realize that scripture is often used to claim that no one can say they have the truth, and others do not, but it's clear to many, from Jesus' next words, that persons are misapplying the text.

(Matthew 7:6) 6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open.

Dogs? Well, who are those, and should you not identify them if you are to avoid being trampled on.
What about his following words, from verses 13-23?

Well if I can't identify a rotten tree by its fruit, how can I be on the watch for false prophets?
How can I go in a narrow gate, if I can't tell the difference between that and the broad one, which many find themselves on?
How can I avoid the wolves, if I can't even tell the difference between those in sheep covering, and the sheep... and avoid them?

Seems to me, if I am in such a state of ignorance, I'm a goner.
I can't then expect Jesus' words in verses 21-23, not to apply to me.
Would you agree?

Paul suggests the God of Peace will crush Satan if we oppose divisions and avoid those who sponsor divisions. (Romans 16) Instead groups (perhaps yours) act as if God won't crush Satan unless we separate from those who disagree with us or don't confess the correct things with our mouths. There are rules about who is or isn't a Christian, who is or isn't saved, who is or isn't following doctrines; and these rules are considered paramount instead of love, fellowship, hospitality, faithfulness and service.

We often use that word "we" loosely, and as applying to us.
I have wondered why we are always one of those Jesus and his apostles said something to?
Have you noticed it too?

We are never on the other side.
Is that because we have decided by our own laws, principles, teachings, that we qualify... rather than allowing God's word - the Bible to be the qualifying marker?

Isn't Paul addressing the Christian congregation, in the first century.
That's not the ones we know today.
Paul said that division would exist among these.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-12; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; 1 Corinthians 11:18-19; 1 John 2:18

The question I think is fitting, is, does the Christian congregation exist today?
I think the pattern of the first century Christians is evident today, but not in the thousand of Christian 'denominations'.

What do you see?

Most say we must collect under common beliefs and understandings and make sure our children are taught them, too. They even deny children the choice of what to think. This is not in accordance with scripture. It is antichristian. Jews heavily train their children, but Christians believe (as Jesus says) that the holy spirit completes their training. These tests are wrong and should no longer be implemented, but the cowardly behavior prevails and fails. I'm in favor of good parenting but not cowardly fencing.

I'm not sure what exactly you are saying here.

Are you saying parents should not teach their children the holy writings, which is the common understanding among followers of Christ?
Were the relatives of Timothy wrong, in your view?
(2 Timothy 3:14-15) 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

You said it's against scripture. Do you have a scripture? Can you quote it please.

Truth follows love, not love truth. The tent must follow the glory, not the glory the tent. Moses leads and Aaron is his prophet.

According to the scriptures, love follows truth.

(2 Peter 1:5-8) 5 For this very reason, put forth all earnest effort to supply to your faith virtue, to your virtue knowledge, 6 to your knowledge self-control, to your self-control endurance, to your endurance godly devotion, 7 to your godly devotion brotherly affection, to your brotherly affection love. 8 For if these things exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 John 4:8) . . .Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

(Romans 10:13-15) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

Jesus Logos (word) in John is love. He is preaching that the time has come when all who come near to the temple are made holy. (Zechariah 14) The bells on the horses and the people and the food. Peter expands upon this saying that the temple is we who are its living stones. Whoever opposes this is 'Against us'. Whoever keeps putting up barriers and denying entrance is against. Whoever is saying not to touch lepers and to fear that which leprousy represents. Whoever is saying that the dirty little uneducated children are not of the kingdom of God, they are against Jesus. Whoever is saying that the spirit must come in particular ways and not like the wind is against Jesus. I think you know the scripture verses I am alluding to.

Yes, and nowhere does the scriptures say "we" - that is, everyone today that says "we", is "we" in Paul's letters.

"Your word is truth" from the gospel of John. "Your Logos is truth," and what logos is that? It is love. John begins with a story in which the greater is baptized by the lesser, turning the master-student relationship upon its head. The son raises the father, the student baptizes the teacher. Love is the new teacher.

So are you saying that John 8:31-32 is saying, “If you remain in my Logos (love), you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”?

Logos is Greek for word, not love... Unless you have a referrence I have not seen.
In that case, i would be interested in seeing that reference.

You don't think Jesus is saying here, they make the love of God invalid, do you?
(Mark 7:13) 13 Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this.”

I'll reply to these in the next post.

Thanks.

 

[nPeace]

All I'm saying is not to judge other disciples of Jesus. Lower the barriers and let people fellowship together. Stop testing everyone to see if they have the requisite knowledge necessary. Let people have different thoughts about doctrines and creeds, and trust God to make up for the lack. I'm not saying to put up with bad character.

What's a disciple of Jesus Brick?

Each person has a facility with which they may inquire of God. If they didn't they wouldn't inquire of scripture at all or look anywhere for answers at all. Why must they receive messengers?

I think you misunderstand what prophets are, and that is why we disagree on this point. You think they are messengers. I think they are protesters. I refer to Ezekiel's vision, because you take it as a message. I think it is less of a message and more of a hopeful vision, but I Peter refers to it as something we are part of. So it is no longer merely a vision but something Christians are required to make true. We are to be this temple.

A prophet is a protester?
I'm a bit confused now. Do you believe the Bible at all? Which parts, if any, because I am beginning to get the impression that you have a convenient Bible you are referring to quite often.

What I am not doing is deciding for others what God says to them. Its one thing to accept what God says. It is another to require that my understanding be accepted by those around me. They are God's servants not mine. I speak of Christianity where the temple is made of people, cut stones of different sizes and shapes all fitting together. I speak of a temple which has been announced and a vision of Ezekiel that is for us now. Anyone who comes anywhere near to this temple is made holy. We do not become leprous when we are touched. Instead the leper is cleansed. The pagans do not make us pagan. They become Christian by coming near to us. What remains is to destroy that within us which fears and opposes unity in Christ, and we call this antichrist.

From where are you getting what God says?

But the role of scripture is not nothing. It is still important. This is I think what the canon tells us, but it is also evident.

Practical things usually. For example it doesn't tell us how to play like David. Jesus points out that his disciples will not be taught everything by him, so why should our experience be different? There is no "How to be Christian" manual sufficient that you can read it and know what you need.

We don't need to know how to play like David.
All we need to know related to God, and spirituality, is in the Bible.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What's a disciple of Jesus Brick?

[Jhn 13:34-35 NIV] 34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

We must know by the love for one another, which is a fruit of the spirit. If this is absent then there is no fruit, and so we cannot know.

A prophet is a protester?
I'm a bit confused now. Do you believe the Bible at all? Which parts, if any, because I am beginning to get the impression that you have a convenient Bible you are referring to quite often.

Yes, prophets are moved more than most people and will protest sins that other people are not. This is why they are not liked.

From where are you getting what God says?

What I am not doing is deciding for others what God says to them. I am responsible for what God says to me if anything. I don't have to test your knowledge to know if you're a disciple of Jesus. That is: such a test does not work at all and is pointless and hurts the church.

We don't need to know how to play like David.
All we need to know related to God, and spirituality, is in the Bible.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Oh, we don't need to know anything not in the Bible? Scripture is inspired by God; but God is not imprisoned within scripture. God can inspire in other ways, such as through David's music which music is key to helping king Saul mentioned in the canonized book of Samuel. David plays, and it helps Saul. Despite this the scripture does not teach us how to play an instrument like David can. We can only learn that in other ways such as by practicing. Why didn't David just read scripture to king Saul? Because the scripture didn't have what Saul needed.

Since the thread is titled "Truths in Scripture", this is the right thread to discuss whether made up things has any basis at all, as opposed to scripture. Especially if one claims to accept scripture.
What's a fundamentalist to you? I hear that applied to so many things, in the same way people apply cult.

I am a fundamentalist, because the canonical scripture teaches me to expect the holy spirit to come from almost any direction. I don't limit it to only confined sources approved of by people who call themselves authorities on matters of God's divine wisdom or who decide for me what is scripture. Nevertheless it is the canon which I am discussing here. This is biblical debates. The truth from canon is that the holy spirit is not limited to the canon, nor to a particular teacher. This I see as the the initial point of Jesus speech to Nicodemus in John 3. If these things were not so we'd all be pharisees, and we'd expect God to share truth only through confirmed and carefully established sources. We'd be like them, always being careful to strain out the gnats, but that is not what Jesus teaches his apostles to be like.

I translate that to, "Let's water down and adulterate the word."
Did I get it right?

Why would I want to water down or adulterate it? The suggestion is preposterous to me. I have been honest in this forum about my weaknesses. This isn't one of them.

In 1 Corinthians Paul says God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. In the same letter he says he lays a foundation as a wise builder but then leaves the building to be finished by strangers! (How irresponsible!) He behaves unlike the 'Church of Christ', which sits on every egg to make sure it stays warm and hatches into just the right kind of bird. That is your church grouping, correct? Its fair to ask, since you challenged me over my title and have challenged that I am the one watering down the word. I think it is you who won't listen and want to change what is being taught in canon. Because you are afraid to do what the canon says to do. You don't believe it will work. You have painted me, but didn't David's brothers do the same to him? They thought David was arrogant, because he wanted to fight the giant. And maybe he was arrogant, but he killed the giant even so. It was foolish young David, not his wise brothers.

It reminds me of scriptures such as...
Jeremiah 23:25-32; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3 - For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.

I'm not the one who gathers teachers to himself to have his ears tickled. "Sermons" hello? Why would I have any interest in teachers who tell me everything is fine? It isn't fine. Things are upside down and backwards.