Bishka
Veteran Member
I heard that all Mormons have horns. Is this true?
Yeah, that's what is keeping our haloes up!
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Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
Yeah, that's what is keeping our haloes up!
cardero
Citizen Mod
I assume that you are talking about the persecutions that removed many Mormons from their homelands. This was always a question that I really couldn’t understand. One of the reasons I couldn't understand it is because I could not wrap my mind around the times in this period of our history.
Why were the Mormons constantly persecuted wherever they went?
Was it because it was a new movement?
Was it the era (for example the need for law and order in the wild west)?
Were all religious people persecuted for a belief in God or just Mormons?
Was it the early Mormons that brought out this behavior in others?
Could any of these atrocities have been prevented?
What are the significant changes since the mid 1800’s to today that Mormons are now tolerable, acceptable and thrive as an established religion when the odds seemed to have been stacked against them in the beginning?
For Katzpur.
Why do you feel that equal time should be spent in the PBS documentary describing the atrocities against the Mormons to the time describing the Mountains Meadow Massacre?
I think there were a lot of reasons. The answer was different in every location. In Missouri, for example, a lot of the persecution was for political reasons. The Latter-day Saints were abolishonists living in the South. They voted together and had a lot of political clout. In New York they were persecuted because of what Joseph Smith believed. My ancestors were also persecuted in Wales when they joined the church (the townspeople tried to hang the father from a bridge). In that case, I think people were scared about what they didn't understand.
Sometimes, but not always.
Possibly. A lot of it was government condoned violence.
I don't know. I think the persecution of the Latter-day Saints in the United States is a unique story.
Maybe some of them, but not all of them.
Yes and no.
Bishka
Veteran Member
I'm actually going to try to answer one question at a time.
Why were we persecuted wherever we went? (In some places we still are). Perhaps because we were abolishonishts (In Missouri), people thought we are/were of the devil, they were scared of something new and thought it perfectly fine to persecute 'non-Christians'. I'm not really sure of all the reasons and why some people committed the atrocities they did.
Aqualung
Tasty
I know quakers got a lot of beef at this point in time. Catholics did, too.
I say it's unique because neither of those religious groups actually got up and left the country to flee the persecution. The story itself is unique. I'm not trying to say that the LDS was the only church ever persecuted.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think jonny's answer pretty much covered that. There were a lot of reasons, many of them political.
I don't think it was because it was a new movement, per se, but because Joseph Smith made three claims that just antagonized people to no end. (1) He claimed to have literally seen God. Obviously, the idea that God had appeared to a fourteen-year-old unlearned boy from rural New York state is not going to go over very well with most people. (2) He claimed to have had an angelic visitation and to have been led to discover an ancient record inscribed on golden plates. He claimed that this record was holy scripture and that God had provided a way for him to translate it. More scripture? In the nineteenth century? Bad idea! (3) He claimed to have been told that none of the churches existing at that time had the fulness of the truth. How many people is that going to offend? Lots.
Well, upstate New York wasn't exactly the wild west, nor was Ohio or Missouri or Illinois. The persecution started long before the Saints headed west.
At the risk of sounding like I have some kind of a complex, I'd say we received more than our fair share of persecution.
Depends on whom you ask.
From the non-Mormon point of view, I'm sure that those Mormons had it coming. Undoubtedly. When a governor can legitimately issue an "Extermination Order" authorizing the cold-blooded murder of any and all Latter-day Saints, what can you expect of the general public?
That's a hard question. I suppose it gets down to understanding. As people learn the truth about what we believe -- and why -- and as they get to know us personally as friends, neighbors and co-workers, they eventually figure out that while we may have some beliefs that are very non-mainstream as Christianity goes, we are decent, hard-working people. We value education, we stress the importance of community service, and we have an excellent work ethic.
See my next post for my answer.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Response to Cardero's question:
I'm going to post the contents of one page from the book, "Latter Days." In my previous post, I mentioned the "Extermination Order" issued by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs of Missouri. What follows is an example of what took place following that proclamation:
Feeling justified by the orders of his own governor, on October 30, [1838] Colonel William O. Jennings of the Missouri state militia took 240 men and attacked the tiny LDS settlement of Haun's Mill on Shoal Creek in remote eastern Caldwell County. Having been forced to surrender all weapons in the settlement five days before as part of a "truce," Joseph Smith had in fact counseled Jacob Haun to desert the settlement and bring his people to Far West. Assuming the truce was authentic, and thinking it cowardly to abandon the settlement, Haun instead told his follows it was the Prophet's counsel that they endeavor to maintain the place. Thus most of the settlers were waiting quietly at the doors of their homes when Jenning's men rode into view. When three horsemen lurched forward, guns blazing, the women and children fled south across a frozen stream into the woods. Mary Stedwell was one of the first hit as they ran, in the hand, but she fell over a log into which the horsemen sent more than a dozen lead balls. Another dozen women and children were hit as they ran. But Jennings wanted the men, most of whom had rushed for position inside the blacksmith shop. The mobbers thrust their muskets through the cracks in the widely spaced logs and fired, killing seventeen men and small boys.
Although the massacre was over within minutes, many wounded lay dying. Sixty-two-year-old Thomas McBride was on his back in the dirt, his gun laying at his side. A militiaman, William Rogers came up to him and demanded it. Unable to move, the old man said simply, "Take it." Rogers grabbed the weapon, turned it around, and shot the old man in the chest. He then pulled a harvesting knife from his saddle and hacked up McBride, who was still alive. Another militiaman, William Reynolds, entered the blacksmith shop where he discovered ten-year-old Sardius Smith and his little brother Alma hiding beneath the bellows, whimpering at the side of their dead father. Sardius begged for their lives, but Reynolds grinned at his associates, saying "Nits make lice," and blew the child's brains out, splattering his little brother. He then sent another ball into six-year-old Alma, destroying most of his hip.
Footnote: Historical sources vary on who killed little Sardius Smith; it seems a half dozen men thought the brave deed worthy of person claim. (See Baugh, "Massacre at Haun's Mill," Brigham Young University Studies, Vol 38, No. 1.)
This was not an isolated incident, as was the Mountain Meadows Massacre. While the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a horrible event, one which the Church will never -- and should never -- fully recover, I said that if it was covered in the PBS documentary, the many similar acts against the Mormons should also be mentioned. I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, either; they don't. I just don't think that 99% of the American people have a clue what the 19th century Mormons endured.
I'm going to post the contents of one page from the book, "Latter Days." In my previous post, I mentioned the "Extermination Order" issued by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs of Missouri. What follows is an example of what took place following that proclamation:
Feeling justified by the orders of his own governor, on October 30, [1838] Colonel William O. Jennings of the Missouri state militia took 240 men and attacked the tiny LDS settlement of Haun's Mill on Shoal Creek in remote eastern Caldwell County. Having been forced to surrender all weapons in the settlement five days before as part of a "truce," Joseph Smith had in fact counseled Jacob Haun to desert the settlement and bring his people to Far West. Assuming the truce was authentic, and thinking it cowardly to abandon the settlement, Haun instead told his follows it was the Prophet's counsel that they endeavor to maintain the place. Thus most of the settlers were waiting quietly at the doors of their homes when Jenning's men rode into view. When three horsemen lurched forward, guns blazing, the women and children fled south across a frozen stream into the woods. Mary Stedwell was one of the first hit as they ran, in the hand, but she fell over a log into which the horsemen sent more than a dozen lead balls. Another dozen women and children were hit as they ran. But Jennings wanted the men, most of whom had rushed for position inside the blacksmith shop. The mobbers thrust their muskets through the cracks in the widely spaced logs and fired, killing seventeen men and small boys.
Although the massacre was over within minutes, many wounded lay dying. Sixty-two-year-old Thomas McBride was on his back in the dirt, his gun laying at his side. A militiaman, William Rogers came up to him and demanded it. Unable to move, the old man said simply, "Take it." Rogers grabbed the weapon, turned it around, and shot the old man in the chest. He then pulled a harvesting knife from his saddle and hacked up McBride, who was still alive. Another militiaman, William Reynolds, entered the blacksmith shop where he discovered ten-year-old Sardius Smith and his little brother Alma hiding beneath the bellows, whimpering at the side of their dead father. Sardius begged for their lives, but Reynolds grinned at his associates, saying "Nits make lice," and blew the child's brains out, splattering his little brother. He then sent another ball into six-year-old Alma, destroying most of his hip.
Footnote: Historical sources vary on who killed little Sardius Smith; it seems a half dozen men thought the brave deed worthy of person claim. (See Baugh, "Massacre at Haun's Mill," Brigham Young University Studies, Vol 38, No. 1.)
This was not an isolated incident, as was the Mountain Meadows Massacre. While the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a horrible event, one which the Church will never -- and should never -- fully recover, I said that if it was covered in the PBS documentary, the many similar acts against the Mormons should also be mentioned. I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, either; they don't. I just don't think that 99% of the American people have a clue what the 19th century Mormons endured.
Aqualung
Tasty
OH, I misunderstood. Carry on.
There is at least one out there, but I can't remember what it's called. It's older and I don't know how valid it is anymore. There are lots of books on the topic though.
cardero
Citizen Mod
In the Book of Mormon when Christ first appeared before the early American settlers, why did Christ ask them to thrust their hands into his side and feel the prints from the nails in his hands in order to prove that he was the Christ who was slain and that died for our sins. Besides the doubt of Thomas over in the other continent, what evidence would this provide to the settlers awaiting Christ’s coming when they had no way of knowing of the news that he had been crucified in the first place? It was written that the multiude of 2500 people had all gone fourth to do this. What was the reason for this?
It had been prophesied to them for hundreds of years that Christ would be crucified. They were expecting it and I suppose he was just showing them that it was really him.
I just remembered two movies made about the Book of Mormon (besides all the animated cartoons): The Book of Mormon Move and The Testaments. The Book of Mormon movie probably isn't worth your time, but I would recommend The Testaments. This is the film that they showed at temple square for years.
cardero
Citizen Mod
Thanks Jonny, I'll keep an eye out for them.
Bishka
Veteran Member
If you'd like I could get you a copy of the Testaments. They are now selling it; just let me know through PM if you'd like it.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Do you believe the Bible teaches there is only one God?
[ Deuteronomy 6:4. "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD." etc... (I believe in one God revealed in three persons that are coequal, coeternal and eternally distinct, a tri-une God, the trinity)]
If so, do you consider the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one God or three separate gods as Joseph Smith claimed:
"I will preach on the plurality of Gods . I wish to declare that I have always and in all congregations when I preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. I have always declared God [the Father] to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! We have three Gods, anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?" (Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)
Since the Bible teaches there is only one God, how can there be more than one in Mormonism? Are you going to be a 'god', too? I thought there was only one, perhaps you can clear up the confusion for me?
Thanks.
[ Deuteronomy 6:4. "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD." etc... (I believe in one God revealed in three persons that are coequal, coeternal and eternally distinct, a tri-une God, the trinity)]
If so, do you consider the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one God or three separate gods as Joseph Smith claimed:
"I will preach on the plurality of Gods . I wish to declare that I have always and in all congregations when I preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. I have always declared God [the Father] to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! We have three Gods, anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?" (Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)
Since the Bible teaches there is only one God, how can there be more than one in Mormonism? Are you going to be a 'god', too? I thought there was only one, perhaps you can clear up the confusion for me?
Thanks.
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
Testaments is my absolute favorite church movie, I saw it at Temple Square 4 times.
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
the bible teaches there is only one God? If you mean one entity that is God, I would disagree. If you mean there are multiple Gods who are one in purpose then I would agree.
If you believe there is only one entity that is God, how do you deal with these scriptures?
Gen 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Gen 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Matt 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1 Jn 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The LDS belief:
Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 1-4 vols., edited by Daniel H. Ludlow (New York: Macmillan, 1992),, p.552-553
Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).
This knowledge concerning the Godhead derives primarily from the Bible and the revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith (see Smith, Joseph: Teachings of Joseph Smith). For example, the three members of the Godhead were separately manifested at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16-17) and at the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:55-56). Joseph Smith commented, "Peter and Stephen testify that they saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one presides over all" (TPJS, p. 312).
On June 16, 1844, in his last Sunday sermon before his martyrdom, Joseph Smith declared that "in all congregations" he had taught "the plurality of Gods" for fifteen years: "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (TPJS, p. 370). The two earliest surviving accounts of Joseph's first vision do not give details on the Godhead, but that he consistently taught that the Father and the Son were separate personages is clearly documentable in most periods of his life (e.g., D&C 76:23 [1832]; 137:3 [1836]; his First Vision, JS-H 1:17 [recorded 1838]; D&C 130:22 [1843]). While the fifth lecture on faith (1834) does not identify the Holy Ghost as a "personage," it affirms that "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead" (cf. Millet, pp. 223-34).
Although the three members of the Godhead are distinct personages, their Godhead is "one" in that all three are united in their thoughts, actions, and purpose, with each having a fulness of knowledge, truth, and power. Each is a God. This does not imply a mystical union of substance or personality. Joseph Smith taught:
Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow-three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for those that thou hast given methat they may be one as we are."I want to read the text to you myself-"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them which thou hast given me out of the world,that they all may be agreed," and all come to dwell in unity [TPJS, p. 372; cf. John 17:9-11, 20-21; also cf. WJS, p. 380].
The unity prayed for in John 17 provides a model for the LDS understanding of the unity of the Godhead-one that is achieved among distinct individuals by unity of purpose, through faith, and by divine will and action. Joseph Smith taught that the Godhead was united by an "everlasting covenant [that] was made between [these] three personages before the organization of this earth" relevant to their administration to its inhabitants (TPJS, p. 190). The prime purpose of the Godhead and of all those united with them is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39; Hinckley, p. 49-51).
Each member of the Godhead fulfills particular functions in relation to each of the others and to mankind. God the Father presides over the Godhead. He is the Father of all human spirits and of the physical body of Jesus Christ. The human body was formed in his image.
Jesus Christ, the Firstborn son of God the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten son in the flesh, is the creative agent of the Godhead and the redeeming mediator between the Father and mankind. By him God created all things, and through him God revealed the laws of salvation. In him shall all be made alive, and through his Atonement all mankind may be reconciled with the Father.
The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit who bears witness to truth. The Father and the Holy Ghost bear witness of the Son, and the Son and the Holy Ghost bear witness of the Father (3 Ne. 11:32; cf. John 8:18). Through the Holy Ghost, revelations of the Father and of the Son are given.
The LDS doctrine of the Godhead differs from the various concepts of the Trinity. Several postbiblical trinitarian doctrines emerged in Christianity. This "dogmatic development took place gradually, against the background of the emanationist philosophy of Stoicism and Neoplatonism (including the mystical theology of the latter), and within the context of strict Jewish monotheism" (ER 15:54). Trinitarian doctrines sought to elevate God's oneness or unity, ultimately in some cases describing Jesus as homoousious (of the same substance) with the Father in order to preclude any claim that Jesus was not fully divine. LDS understanding, formulated by latter-day revelation through Joseph Smith, rejects the idea that Jesus or any other personage loses individuality by attaining Godhood or by standing in divine and eternal relationships with other exalted beings.
[See also Christology; Deification.]