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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world.

I also weep for our neglect, as it is their Love that we reject, how can we be forgiven?

I offer a thought from the Baha'i Writings on this topic and ask also for your thoughts.

It has been recorded that during the last years of Bahá'u'lláh's exile in Baghdád, that He spoke many times of the period of trial and hardship that was to come and one such warning revealed to Him was recorded from a dream He had, which is described as follows:

"I saw," He wrote in a Tablet, "the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: `We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!' They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: `...Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld.... Be patient, be patient.'... They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn." -- Bahá'u'lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 147

I see the above passsage is applicable to all the Prophets and Messengers, as it the following quote.

"..Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet, Bahá’í Prayers, p. 317

Imagine what they take on for humanity, they bring Love, we offer hate. They bring peace we offer war. They one and all, suffer for us.

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

Regards Tony
 

Ella S.

Dispassionate Goth
I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.

It may be hard to discuss this topic if one comes to it with all guns balzing. :)

One can approach the subject on the level of material suffering, which many share in, yet we can consider that what people of abuse suffer more from, is from the Psychological trauma.

I see many people who suffer material pain and afflictions, have a very happy and positive outlooks in their lives.

It is an interesting topic worth exploring as the end to suffering is possible, even if one has faced many material based afflictions and mental trauma.

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Think of the suffering that gays have to endure from prejudice and intolerance by others, including religious dogmas. If Bahai’s messengers have suffered then I would expect more tolerance and empathy from them.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.

I personally know a woman who was forced to watch her husband get axed to death, her two teenagers, a boy and a girl, get raped repeatedly, only to be followed by her own rape. I concur with you totally. These 'prophets' didn't know what suffering was, and to claim they did outsuffer the many who have suffered is in poor taste. Cruel joke indeed.
 

Ella S.

Dispassionate Goth
It may be hard to discuss this topic if one comes to it with all guns balzing. :)

One can approach the subject on the level of material suffering, which many share in, yet we can consider that what people of abuse suffer more from, is from the Psychological trauma.

I see many people who suffer material pain and afflictions, have a very happy and positive outlooks in their lives.

It is an interesting topic worth exploring as the end to suffering is possible, even if one has faced many material based afflictions and mental trauma.

Regards Tony

People aren't traumatized because they need to check their outlook. They're traumatized because they experience traumatic events which shock their nervous systems.

Cultivating the discipline to deal with traumatic events takes time that children especially don't have and, even then, it's not going to magically prevent you from being traumatized.

The truth is that some people suffer through no fault of their own and lack the necessary resources they need to overcome that suffering. They need resources, not someone to preach at them.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It doesn't make me sad when people neglect the dogmatic aspects of so called Messenger teachings.

It makes me happy.

So your claim that it brings great sadness upon all humanity is utterly unfounded.

In my opinion.
Yeah, I'm certainly not saddened from being deaf, ill, blind, a fool, and everything else attributed to me (and you, and many) for simply being a non-Baha'i. Now, that lady I mentioned, a friend, that is sad. She now has dementia, which is probably a blessing in disguise.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I haven't seen any suffering a religious icon has experienced that is unique to them, or hasn't been compounded by being an out-group different to that religious icon.

I am not awed by martyrs who seek glory in their suffering and less so who think suffering is a virtue added to their character, as it causes apathy and indifference to the suffering of others.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara

Aside from the usual point that the Buddha was not a messenger or prophet from a deity, in the common use of the word "suffering" the Buddha did not suffer (aside from a period of self-imposed strict asceticism). As to the word meaning the broader dukkha, he supposedly achieved liberation from this at Bodh Gaya - which then set in motion the teaching that we now call Buddhism.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world.

Ha! I think you're the one who came out with guns blazing :)

I think what @Ella S. said is spot on. And I'd add that many so-called prophets brought their suffering on themselves. This is far different than the starving child.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Think of the suffering that gays have to endure from prejudice and intolerance by others, including religious dogmas. If Bahai’s messengers have suffered then I would expect more tolerance and empathy from them.

I see Messengers have also suffered prejudice and intolerance and were the apex of empathy.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To avoid that, I suggest a less provocative thread title.

It is possible to do that, but at the same time I am aware of and realise that it will eventually be brought up, that this was offered by a Messenger.

So why not disclose it at the very beginning?

Why would that be offered, given the fact many will immediately jump on to what people have faced in this material world!

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People aren't traumatized because they need to check their outlook. They're traumatized because they experience traumatic events which shock their nervous systems.

Cultivating the discipline to deal with traumatic events takes time that children especially don't have and, even then, it's not going to magically prevent you from being traumatized.

The truth is that some people suffer through no fault of their own and lack the necessary resources they need to overcome that suffering. They need resources, not someone to preach at them.

This is not in debate, really it is not, I agree.

But why would it be a Messenger suffers more than all we can suffer? My thought is they take all this suffering on themselves, willingly accept it on behalf of all humanity.

This is what I am thinking.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't make me sad when people neglect the dogmatic aspects of so called Messenger teachings.

It makes me happy.

So your claim that it brings great sadness upon all humanity is utterly unfounded.

In my opinion.

That would support the OP, they suffer such comments.

Regards Tony
 
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