metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And apparently Cain & Abel are more of who you look to for guidance than Jesus. OK, you cleared that up quite well, thank you for the clarification.
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AOC and All Other Members of the "Squad" Have Been Re-Elected to Congress
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
He still is a potential mass shooter, so I don't see any difference.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Jesus never said don't defend yourself or your loved ones.
How do you know that?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Because I've read the Bible. If he did say it, it's not recorded.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then how would you know? The earliest Gospel is at least thirty years after the crucifixion. A lot of information can get lost in that time. A lot of "information" can be added since that time.
Right. There is what? Perhaps around 300 Jesus quotes in the Bible, give or take.
The man lived around 30 years, so they say. I bet he said a lot of things that were never recorded.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
True believers don't care about anything but their mission. They think they are called of god.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Mishnah plays a big part in the Bible.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Seems pretty clear to me:
Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 73 helpful votes
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
John 18:36 ESV / 42 helpful votes
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
1 John 3:15 ESV / 41 helpful votes
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 5:38-39 ESV / 36 helpful votes
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 26:52-54 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword
Luke 6:27-31 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either.
Matt.10[16] "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 73 helpful votes
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
John 18:36 ESV / 42 helpful votes
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
1 John 3:15 ESV / 41 helpful votes
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 5:38-39 ESV / 36 helpful votes
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 26:52-54 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword
Luke 6:27-31 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either.
Matt.10[16] "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
That's no different than saying Jesus might have said we should kill our enemies with machetes.
I'm not interested in " might have".
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Yes as much as it depends on you live at peace.
But be prepared to give an account for how you let evil take out people when you had the ability to stop it.
Let us consider Jesus as our example: sure he was known as a gentle person. Scripture testifies that He would not even quench a smoking flax (Matthew 12:20). But was He always (and only) gentle? No. When the occasion demanded it, He took whip in hand and chased the moneychangers out of the temple (John 2:15).
4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”
Here's something rarely mentioned. Jesus literally bowls over a whole battalion of soldiers and they just pretend it didn't happen.
Jesus was holding power in check because it wasn't his time to use it. But he isn't portrayed in scripture as only gentle but also as a warrior King.
And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Rev. 19:11-16 – ASV).
Wait, Jesus is making war? Right because being gentle when needed and making war when that's needed aren't opposites.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Actually you are since you really have no idea what he actually said.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The early Church by its actions and what was written in the 2nd century certainly did not agree with your assessment. The Book of Revelation uses a great deal of symbolism; thus, one cannot take much of what is said literally.
Again, 2nd century writings make it quite clear what the Church's position was that gradually was altered in the 3rd and 4th centuries, especially when Constantine made Christinaity the official religion.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Really?Protestant historians have noted that only two, or possibly three, Church Fathers were openly opposed to Christians participating in the military. Their grounds for rejecting military life is clearly the military’s involvement with idolatry. The military required an oath and certain garments of clothing, ceremonies and symbols which were idolatrous in nature.
The New Testament carried on the Old Testament ethic of the just use of force for personal or civil defense. The apostolic age began with Christians such as Cornelius remaining in the army.
None of the earliest writers, such as Polycarp (a.d. 70-155), uttered one word against war or against Christians participating in the military. There is no evidence that the issue of war or the Christian’s participation in the army ever occurred to the Church Fathers.
Polycarp applied the Old and New Testament teaching against the use of violence for personal vengeance. This is in line with Jesus' teaching on not taking vengeance for oneself.
In the Old Testament the prophets would preach against taking personal vengeance against one’s enemies and, at the same time, encourage the nation of Israel to destroy the enemies of God.
We have archeological evidence found on Christian tombstone inscriptions which identify the person buried as a Christian who was in the military. At least eight of these inscriptions are clearly pre-Constantine.
A second line of evidence is found in the list of military martyrs prior to Constantine. In the very first church history, Eusebius recorded the history of many Christian soldiers who died for the faith.
Under the influence of Saint Gregory, Armenia became the first Christian nation in a.d. 303. When Maxminus tried to force the Armenians to renounce Christianity in a.d. 312, the Armenians took up arms and defended their faith and freedom. They defeated the Roman army.
Another source of evidence is the Thundering Legion (a.d. 173). Eusebius relates that soldiers in the Melitine Legion would kneel and pray before going into battle, as was the custom of Christians.
The pacifists have not been able to present one sentence from St. Clement (a.d. 30-100), Mathetes (a.d. 130), Polycarp (a.d. 155), Ignatius (a.d. 30-107), Papias (a.d. 70-155), Justin Martyr (a.d. 110-165), the epistles of Barnabus (a.d. 100), Ireneas (a.d. 120-202), the Shepherd of Hermas (a.d. 160), Tatian (a.d. 110-172), Athenagoras (a.d. 177), or Clement of Alexandria (a.d. 153-217), which in their respective contexts discuss whether war is justifiable or whether Christians can be involved in war.
Clement of Alexandria wrote:
Practice husbandry, we say, if you are a husbandman; but while you till the fields, know God. Sail the sea, you who are devoted to navigation, yet call the while on the heavenly pilot. Has (saving) knowledge taken hold of you while engaged in military service? Listen to the commander who orders what is right. (II:200).
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
First of all, what is your source for the above and, secondly, note that some of what you wrote above deals with some changes in the latter 3rd century going into the 4th, which I stated previously had been made? I've posted just two sources I've used, but there are more, including from Dr. William Barclay [Anglican], who is my favorite Christian theologian.