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England Players Ditch "OneLove" Armband, Supporters' Association Criticizes Qatar

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There are many alternatives to kneeling and wearing armbands in the manner that has happened so far that don't necessitate silence. Social media and off-pitch interviews exist, as do widely circulated press conferences. To choose a method of protest that is possibly the most likely to generate hostility may be emotionally fulfilling (even to me at times) but ultimately counterproductive if you want to promote specific cultural shifts in views.
I see a couple different kinds of hostility.
A) Hostile protest, eg, abusive insults,
threats, arson, assault.
B) Mere reaction to civil criticism.

Type B is acceptable (IMO).
Of course, one should always consider
expressing criticism in a manner most
likely to be productive.
This is not even close to my argument, and I'm not sure where you got that from if you have read my posts in this thread.
I see this specifically as your "perspective",
not an argument you've made.
The point is that if I were a public figure and never or almost never spoke of my country's issues, then defying domestic laws when I was in another country and antagonizing a majority of its population would probably seem self-righteous, inconsistent, and overtly selective. This doesn't render the criticism invalid, to be sure: Qatar is indeed a country with terrible human rights conditions for multiple groups. It does, however, affect the impact of the criticism and its capacity to achieve the desired changes.
Qatar is a country seeking more presence
in the western world. I see this feedback as
effective pressure for them to change.
It is highly debatable whether it is "civil" to intentionally violate the laws of a country you voluntarily traveled to when doing so is unlikely to benefit the locals who suffer the persecution to begin with.
Do armbands & kneeling actually violate Qatar's laws?
(This would point to it being the wrong venue for such
an event in the 1st place.) If so, the boundaries of such
laws against expression are worth pushing against.
Furthermore, I wasn't under the impression that any of the players' protests were individual; all of the protests so far have seemed to be coordinated gestures backed by their respective countries' soccer federations.
Some protests were in concert.
Others weren't, eg, kneeling.
1) I didn't and couldn't possibly "abuse" famous players who will never read or be affected by my words. That's such a bizarre statement, unless you meant something I missed.
I never thought your words would affect them.
"Abuse" simply addresses unfair (IMO) criticism.
2) It is exactly the counterpoductivity to the cause of inspiring change that renders the protests mostly undesirable. The players will go home afterward; LGBT Qataris and their allies will be stuck in the country with the same old homophobic laws now coupled with hostile social backlash against perceived inconsistency and moralizing from foreign public figures representing powerful countries that have their own issues—which, as I said, many of these public figures don't bother addressing even fleetingly.
I don't know what effect the protests would have.
But Qatar is seeking international exposure &
approval, so protests by people from other countries
might have a positive effect.
3) My objection is not because their countries have their own problems; it's because some of them conveniently stay silent on their countries' issues but moralize to others in a way most likely to be unhelpful to promotion of diversity and inclusion, for reasons I have elaborated on here.
We aren't inspired to weigh in on every injustice in
our own & every other country. If this is hypocrisy,
then we're all hypocritical, & perhaps should remain
silent on all issues, eh. Nah.
People will protest when the spirit moves them.
This is good.
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
There's no evidence that wearing armbands in the World Cup changes homophobic societies either. I thought we were only talking about the different ways in which players could convey their messages, anyway.

We are discussing whether any alternative would have been better. Aren't we? In two senses of the term, either because it could bring about more positive changes or because it would bring about equal changes with a less antagonizing message.

Since there is no evidence that your alternatives would bring about more positive changes, and since bigots are always going to be selective about what antagonizes them (even when there is no intention to antagonize them themselves per se)... I see no merit in your alternatives, as in I see no bigger benefit in them.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
We are discussing whether any alternative would have been better. Aren't we? In two senses of the term, either because it could bring about more positive changes or because it would bring about equal changes with a less antagonizing message.

Since there is no evidence that your alternatives would bring about more positive changes, and since bigots are always going to be selective about what antagonizes them (even when there is intention to antagonize them themselves per se)... I see no merit in your alternatives.

I think the alternatives I listed are better in the sense that they are less likely to draw as much widespread hostility and outrage. The actors I mentioned are two examples of this, although I recognize that both of us lack rigorous studies or other similarly systematic evidence to cite in this discussion.

I think we're looking at this from very different angles, though. Your argument seems to suggest that provoking the outrage resulting from bigotry doesn't matter, and I think it also doesn't sufficiently address the multitude of socioeconomic and political factors that give rise to bigotry and enable it in the first place.

As far as I can see, looking at societies and cultures in a more comprehensive way based on material conditions (including education, upbringing, etc.) and basing one's approach to influencing cultural changes on that makes it much easier to address bigotry than merely pointing out that someone is bigoted and saying that it doesn't matter to anger them by wearing an armband without addressing any of the numerous other factors.

If you look at almost any society that used to be severely homophobic but now has legal and social acceptance of LGBT people, you will see a lot of factors at play such as religious reform, better education, improved living conditions, democracy, and secularization of the law, among others. You won't see protests from outsiders inspiring changes on their own that, in all societies we know of so far, have taken decades or sometimes centuries and many specific material conditions to allow them to happen.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What is important is that LGBT people watching the tournament from abroad and especially within Qatar feel that the solidarity football expresses towards them isn't forgotton because some despots bribed enough of the right people.
I certainly hope any countries handing out armbands follow through and accept LGBTQ Qataris (or nationals of any country where they'll face death or persecution) as refugees.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think the alternatives I listed are better in the sense that they are less likely to draw as much widespread hostility and outrage. The actors I mentioned are two examples of this, although I recognize that both of us lack rigorous studies or other similarly systematic evidence to cite in this discussion.

I think we're looking at this from very different angles, though. Your argument seems to suggest that provoking the outrage resulting from bigotry doesn't matter, and I think it also doesn't sufficiently address the multitude of socioeconomic and political factors that give rise to bigotry and enable it in the first place.

As far as I can see, looking at societies and cultures in a more comprehensive way based on material conditions (including education, upbringing, etc.) and basing one's approach to influencing cultural changes on that makes it much easier to address bigotry than merely pointing out that someone is bigoted and saying that it doesn't matter to anger them by wearing an armband without addressing any of the numerous other factors.

What you are defending here is not that we should not provoke the bigots (since wearing that armband or taking a knee is not provacation per se), but rather that we should not do anything the bigots find provocative.

Ideally we wouldn't want any radical reaction. The problem is that we have no control over what exactly is going to offend them. Let's take this a step further: Imagine that the mere fact of saying that homosexuals shouldn't be sent to jail ends up provoking a backlash from the bigots, and you can be certain it will, even if among a small group.

Should we then not talk about that? Should we then remain silent until they eventually change their minds even though we acknowledge that this won't happen by itself given that their culture and religion is leading them towards more bigotry?

If you look at almost any society that used to be severely homophobic but now has legal and social acceptance of LGBT people, you will see a lot of factors at play such as religious reform, better education, improved living conditions, democracy, and secularization of the law, among others. You won't see protests from outsiders inspiring changes on their own that, in all societies we know of so far, have taken decades or sometimes centuries and many specific material conditions to allow them to happen.

I don't know about protests, but...

1)Do you know what was a significant driving force behind the abolition of slavery in Brazil? The UK. The UK went to the point where it took up the role of intercepting slave ships, hundreds of them. There is a lot of international pressure.

2) The degree of globalization we have nowadays is unprecedented. Expect outside pressure being far more impactful than it used to be.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There's no evidence that wearing armbands in the World Cup changes homophobic societies either. I thought we were only talking about the different ways in which players could convey their messages, anyway.
Is the homophobic society necessarily the only intended audience, though?

Personally, I think a lot of the messaging is directed at the West, not at Qatar: "remember Qatar's treatment of LGBTQ people when you're considering tourism/trade/cooperation/whatever."
 
There are many alternatives to kneeling and wearing armbands in the manner that has happened so far that don't necessitate silence. Social media and off-pitch interviews exist, as do widely circulated press conferences. To choose a method of protest that is possibly the most likely to generate hostility may be emotionally fulfilling (even to me at times) but ultimately counterproductive if you want to promote specific cultural shifts in views.

You are missing the point that it wasn't something started for the World Cup aimed at changing the Middle East. It it part of a continued series of actions primarily aimed at promoting inclusivity in European football, where it has been quite successful.

Supporters across English football are by now used to seeing their club's stadium decked out in rainbows for two weeks every year as part of the Rainbow Laces campaign.

Set up in 2013 by LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall, Rainbow Laces seeks to show the community that sport is for them. A traditionally hostile arena for minorities, the work of Rainbow Laces has been part of a wider move towards the acceptance and inclusion of LGBT+ people in football.

The Qatar World Cup has forced the campaign to move from its traditional spot in the calendar, with Premier League and EFL clubs choosing the next fortnight to throw their support behind Rainbow Laces. Stonewall have been the driving force behind it, with director of programmes Liz Ward delighted at the progress that has been made so far.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-rainbow-laces-stonewall-28270341

The campaign is awesome and raising awareness seems to have had an impact. Sky Sports says, “Over the last five years, the proportion of sport fans who think homophobic remarks in sport are acceptable has almost halved — from 25% in 2017 to 14% in 2022. This follows five years of dedicated campaigning by Stonewall and sporting bodies such as the Premier League, FA, Premiership Rugby and leading sponsors who are part of TeamPride.”

EPL teams to wear rainbow laces, but we still need openly gay player - Outsports

Manuel Neuer and the German Football Association (DFB) were investigated over the goalkeeper's decision to wear a rainbow captain's armband at Euro 2020.


Uefa prohibits political statements from players and teams, hence why an investigation may now be launched. A report from NTV has claimed the DFB could be fined for Neuer's armband, which he also wore in a pre-tournament warmup fixture against Latvia.

It is currently Pride Month, and Munich's Allianz Arena is set to light up in rainbow colours for Germany's final group game against Hungary later this week.

Neuer has worn the armband in both of Germany's games at the tournament as a show of support of the LGBTQ+ community.


Manuel Neuer's rainbow armband approved by UEFA as 'good cause' | SportsJOE.ie

The captains of the national teams of Belgium, Denmark, Germany, England, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Wales, Sweden and Swiss will wear the OneLove armband in their upcoming games. OneLove initially started as a campaign by the Dutch Football Association which emphasizes on the fact that all football fans have one thing in common: their love for football. With this message the creators want to express their support for unification of all people and at the same time they want to speak out against all forms of discrimination.

Holland captain Virgil van Dijk: “This is an important message which suits the game of football: on the field everybody is equal and this should be the case in every place in society. With the OneLove band we express this message. On behalf of the Dutch team I have been wearing this band for quite a while now. It is good to see that other countries are joining this initiative.”

Sweden and Norway will join the initiative only during the UEFA Nations League matches since they didn’t qualify fort he FIFA World Cup. Due to alternate plans to mark the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, England will not wear the armband in September but adopt OneLove at the FIFA World Cup. The captains of the seven other countries will wear the OneLove armband in their upcoming games for the UEFA Nations League and the FIFA World Cup in Qatar.

Ten countries embrace the Dutch OneLove campaign | KNVB






 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I certainly hope any countries handing out armbands follow through and accept LGBTQ Qataris (or nationals of any country where they'll face death or persecution) as refugees.
Well, aye, that would definitely be good.

Would you say that in the case the countries aren't welcoming refugess the players shouldn't wear an armband, or a rainbow on their shirt, or whatever?

An important consideration is whether it is wise or responsible to engage in a protest that will inevitably result in more anti-LGBT backlash in societies with widespread homophobia—thereby contributing to an even worse climate for native LGBT people and allies—just to send a message to fans that the players and federations can still send in multiple other ways.

It's not an easy or straightforward issue, and I can see why a player would feel it was helpful to wear such an armband in these circumstances. I just don't think it will help those who are suffering the most under Qatari laws and prevalent homophobia.
I guess that the best thing would be to seek the opinions of LGBT communities. If the Qatari LGBT population is pleading for foriegn footballers to leave the armband off then I'm happy to agree with you.
 
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