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Couldn't have said it better myself...

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes believers in God have various religions.
And yes some people want to combine them all into one religion (Eg Baha'is) and some just give up and say they are all rubbish and etc.
I see Christianity as the best and the truth however and witnessed to by God in prophecy and by historical records.
But everything is attacked by those who don't believe and it becomes hard to see through the muck to see what the truth is without God leading the way.
I agree. Not everyone has the same experience, of course. But I always remember Paul's experience, formerly known as Saul. I know there are those who would put the account down, but interestingly enough, Paul found himself trying to reason with others, including those in power, who did not agree with him. The word went out. Some believed, some did not.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That sort of imperfection in the Bible and they supposedly very grim punishments for getting it wrong were some of the strongest reasons that I lost my Christian faith. The Bible has two many places where you have to "just believe" when it contradicts itself and is willing to send people to hell for not understanding a story that is not consistent.
The traditional concept of hell is off the mark. The Bible says that the dead know nothing. They are dead. When I was in college and had to read certain literary works, the idea of hellfire (such as expressed in Dante's Inferno) always made me think poor, poor Dante -- what absurdities and sadness that someone would think that way. And at that point I was not a "believer." Later upon looking into the Bible, I realized that the usual recognition of hell is not in harmony with (1) godly principles, and (2) the Bible.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Just because we can’t read Mayan script doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
From what I understand, "serious exploration of Classic Maya sites began in the 1830s. By the early to mid-20th century, a small portion of their system of hieroglyph writing had been deciphered, and more about their history and culture became known. Most of what historians know about the Maya comes from what remains of their architecture and art, including stone carvings and inscriptions on their buildings and monuments."
Mayan Civilization: Calendar, Pyramids & Ruins- HISTORY - HISTORY
The history that Moses and others had written down have been around for thousands of years, transmitted carefully and preserved. We can read the history of the kings and their good and bad points.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That sort of imperfection in the Bible and they supposedly very grim punishments for getting it wrong were some of the strongest reasons that I lost my Christian faith. The Bible has two many places where you have to "just believe" when it contradicts itself and is willing to send people to hell for not understanding a story that is not consistent.

One of the reasons why I also renounced my Christian faith was because of the numerous inconsistencies in the Bible.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Did Satan tell them they would die or would not die? They did not have to die; but on the day they ate from the tree they were going TO die. The action on that day sealed the death penalty for them. So look at this and tell me if Satan told the truth:
He told Eve (Genesis chapter 3), “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
There are many points here to be learned, but the question we're concentrating on is, Did she die? Remember -- he said, "You will not surely die." Did Satan tell her the truth--that she would NOT die? (Did she die?) She did not die in the 24-hour period (if you consider that a day) from sun up (usually considered "daytime") to the next 24-hour time period, but the sentence was invoked on that day. Did she die is the question.
Context matters. That was in response to the false claim of God that they would die that day.


Did they die that day?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well, let's see what the Pope recently said -
“And here I have something sad and painful to say,” the pope continued. “There are fake Christians: those who say, ‘Jesus Is risen’ or ‘I have been saved by Jesus’ — I am in new life, but I live a corrupt life.”
“And these fake Christians will end badly,” he said.
Pope Francis Warns that ‘Fake Christians’ Will ‘End Badly’ (breitbart.com)
O ., kay. So what does that have to do with this discussion? Are you implying that you are a "fake Christian"? After all you do claim that God is a liar. You just do not understand how you do that. Earlier Christians would have an excuse, modern ones not so much.

It is not proper to dodge a reasonable question. Why did you post that nonsense which only makes only look like a "fake Christian" instead of answering a question?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The traditional concept of hell is off the mark. The Bible says that the dead know nothing. They are dead. When I was in college and had to read certain literary works, the idea of hellfire (such as expressed in Dante's Inferno) always made me think poor, poor Dante -- what absurdities and sadness that someone would think that way. And at that point I was not a "believer." Later upon looking into the Bible, I realized that the usual recognition of hell is not in harmony with (1) godly principles, and (2) the Bible.
Now you are just being a smorgasbord Christian. I can quote verses that describe people suffering in hell to you. But in a way you are right.. If one ignores the verses that one does not like and only pays attention to the verses that one likes one can get the Bible to say almost anything.

That is another flaw in the Bible that tells us that it is just another man made religion.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That appears to be the case. I have not read this yet, the download which is free is 83 pages long, but it was an award winning article and makes that case at least from the abstract:

Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation

From another source:

Holocaust_1933_NaziPropagandaDepictingMartinLuther_FH229430.jpg


“Hitler’s fight and Luther’s teaching are the best defense for the German people.”
As one who studied the Holocaust in Poland, Israel, and here in the States, you are so correct. Matter of fact, Hitler's Nuremburg Laws were from Luther's Nuremburg Laws.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church but for some reason the above was not taught us. :rolleyes:
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Vengeance is something that belongs to God to dish out, but vengeance is not restitution.
Restitution is restoration of something that has been lost or taken.
If a victim ends up with eternal life with an eternity of love and abundance then restitution has been given and more and it will be up to the victim at that stage to say if they are not happy with that and want more.
It sounds as if you want time to be turned backwards so that the victim never experienced the suffering caused by the culprit and everything will be returned to that point in time as if the evil never happened.
But the evil did happen and I don't think that time will be turned backwards.
Are you sure you don't want vengeance against the perpetrator? You have mentioned that you don't like the idea of the perp being forgiven by God (if that happens)
Again with the vengeance. No, again, it's not vengeance I'm looking for. I'm trying to figure out where the morality is here. You keep saying your way is moral, but when we dig deeper into it, it's pretty revealing that it isn't.

The whole idea that anyone is getting any eternal life is just one of the parts that make this whole thing so immoral. It's just an element of wishful thinking added to the mix to make oneself feel better.

So the perp does something wrong ("sins") against another person. The perp feels bad, and turns to God(s) for forgiveness. The perp is forgiven and gets to go to have an "eternal life" in heaven after he dies. The perp is all set!

The perp has:
-secured himself a place in heaven
-received forgiveness for his actions from a third party that wasn't in any way affected by the perp's actions

The perp has not:
-provided restitution to the actual victim, or to the victim's family
-apologized to the actual victim or the victim's family
-done anything at all to improve the plight of the actual victim or the victim's family

The victim is in the same place they started from.

All of the perp's actions are selfish in nature. They benefit only himself. No benefits are provided to the victim or the victim's family.
You say, "oh well the victim gets to live forever too!" But what if (s)he's not a Christian though? What if (s)he doesn't sincerely believe in Jesus Christ? Oopsy. Now they don't even get eternal life either.

Not to mention the fact that all of this deals with some mystical and mythical idea about some eternal life, while completely ignoring what's going on in this one life we know we actually get for sure. That's another immoral thing about this. Oh well, it will all be better after you die and get to live forever!
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
(a quote from Psalm 102:25-27 being applied to Jesus)

So now you can see that the New Testament teaches that through the Son all things have been created and therefore that Jesus cannot have been one of those things. :)

Hebrews 1 is the first chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. The author is anonymous, although the internal reference to "our brother Timothy" (Hebrews 13:23) causes a traditional attribution to Paul, but this attribution has been disputed since the second century and there is no decisive evidence for the authorship.
Hebrews 1 - Wikipedia

I understand that you have faith in the Bible as being inspired by God. You therefore quote it and see it as inerrant in doctrine.
I see that your quote is not a quote from Jesus, but an opinion of the author. There were many opinions about Jesus in the early days, and I don't see quotes from anonymous authors as authoritative.

These verses also show that Jesus is pretty much equal to His Father..
..so you prefer the opinion of an anonymous author, over what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel?
"Don't call me good. Only God alone is good"

But there are other places where the Bible teaches that Jesus was sent to become a man from His Father in heaven and other places in John's gospel apart from the preamble also.
If you don't believe it you don't believe it.
Yes .. Jesus was sent "to become a man" .. not God.
Anyhow, you believe that Jesus is "special" .. so do I.
..but Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father" .. perhaps that is where you and I differ.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
But everything is attacked by those who don't believe and it becomes hard to see through the muck to see what the truth is without God leading the way.
Mmm .. I agree that faith is a valuable thing.
Creed is important, but not so important as faith.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Those who were there also know what happened. If you think that God allowed them to think that Jesus was killed and raised again then it is God's fault that the gospel teaches what it does and I suppose that means that God wanted it to be that way until he sent Muhammad to clear up the mess that God created for us.
God's fault?
Is it God's fault that there are 100's of different Abrahamic denominations?
Is it God's fault that a creed was adopted by a failing empire, that declared others as heresy, and denied them their belief?

In any case, both the Bible and Qur'an exist, and we make of them what we will. Jesus dying and rising, apparently, is the foundation of Christian faith. Jesus did not teach that. It is a sectarian belief that came to dominate over others, as the gentile church became the church of the empire.

It was not spread by Jewish "Christians" such as the disciples.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No. Once again, faith is your failing not mine. You refuse to even understand the concept of evidence. You appear to be afraid of it.
You may believe that the evidence proves the concept of evolution, but it does not. Since you don't see that the evidence or remains are pieced in to the concept, I refrain from going further right now. Perhaps one day you will, who knows? I know you were deceived by your initial introduction to what is erroneously called Christianity and I don't blame you. It's sad and reminds me of the deal the Devil wanted to make with Jesus Christ -- he offered him all the kingdoms of the world if only Jesus would do one act of worship to him. He promised him all the kingdoms of the world. That tells me something. Regardless of whether you believe that God can do marvelous extraordinary things, and one of those things is to encounter a person. But just like demons approached and even entered people, me personally, I can't answer for everything. As to how God or the demons did it. But I have come to understand there are some things we cannot see but that happen. It's kind of like evolution -- no proof, but belief by those that it happened. And yes, I know there are religions that believe their way and not even Jesus could change their minds.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You may believe that the evidence proves the concept of evolution, but it does not. Since you don't see that the evidence or remains are pieced in to the concept, I refrain from going further right now. Perhaps one day you will, who knows? I know you were deceived by your initial introduction to what is erroneously called Christianity and I don't blame you. It's sad and reminds me of the deal the Devil wanted to make with Jesus Christ -- he offered him all the kingdoms of the world if only Jesus would do one act of worship to him. He promised him all the kingdoms of the world. That tells me something. Regardless of whether you believe that God can do marvelous extraordinary things, and one of those things is to encounter a person. But just like demons approached and even entered people, me personally, I can't answer for everything. As to how God or the demons did it. But I have come to understand there are some things we cannot see but that happen. It's kind of like evolution -- no proof, but belief by those that it happened. And yes, I know there are religions that believe their way and not even Jesus could change their minds.
And in your first sentence you demonstrated that I was correct.

The question is:

Why do you believe that God is a liar? Like it or not the evidence there and it is clear. If God was the creator as you believe that means that he planted false evidence that could only refute Genesis. That is how you are calling God a liar.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That sort of imperfection in the Bible and they supposedly very grim punishments for getting it wrong were some of the strongest reasons that I lost my Christian faith. The Bible has two many places where you have to "just believe" when it contradicts itself and is willing to send people to hell for not understanding a story that is not consistent.
Again -- hell is not what many people make it out to be. (Including Dante's version.)
Hell is a word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades. It is sometimes translated as pit, grave, or death.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again -- hell is not what many people make it out to be. (Including Dante's version.)
Hell is a word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades. It is sometimes translated as pit, grave, or death.
Only in your personal interpretation. There are others that appear to be just as valid.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And in your first sentence you demonstrated that I was correct.

The question is:

Why do you believe that God is a liar? Like it or not the evidence there and it is clear. If God was the creator as you believe that means that he planted false evidence that could only refute Genesis. That is how you are calling God a liar.
Again -- did they die? The Devil said they would not die. But they did. God said they would die. Satan said they would not. They were dy-ing or as good as dead when they ate from that tree. I know you don't like that explanation, but then -- did they die, or did they not?
So now please explain what is a day, ok? Because some translations say 'on' the day, and others say 'in' the day. (There's a difference yes, often left up to the reader to comprehend.) And when you finish explaining what constitutes a biblical day, kindly also see what you make abouit the seventh day ... did it end?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Only in your personal interpretation. There are others that appear to be just as valid.
OK. :) You're making me smile because you won't look at the translations and original words. It's not my personal interpretation. But then we could always go to Dante's version to see a personal interpretation. Hell does not mean torture, as so many false religions make it out to be. And day does not always mean 24-hour period, protest as you will. I wish you well.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again -- did they die? The Devil said they would not die. But they did. God said they would die. Satan said they would not. They were dy-ing or as good as dead when they ate from that tree. I know you don't like that explanation, but then -- did they die, or did they not?
So now please explain what is a day, ok? Because some translations say 'on' the day, and others say 'in' the day. (There's a difference yes, often left up to the reader to comprehend.) And when you finish explaining what constitutes a biblical day, kindly also see what you make abouit the seventh day ... did it end?
No, the serpent did not say that. You are ignoring context again. He denied the "on that day" claim.

And a day in the context given would be a period of time less than twenty four hours. Considering their definition, probably before sunset.
 
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