Thanksgiving - Who Do You Thank?

[Ashoka]

I don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. Not American lol

I'm American myself, and I don't celebrate either.

 

[Sand Dancer]

From the 16th century explorers, to the 17th century pilgrims and settlers, to the 18th century Founding Fathers, and continuing to the mid 20th century, America has embraced Christianity. Though the secular educational system of today won't teach it and popular culture rejects it, there's a prevalence of laws, institutions, monuments, historical records, and quotes we have to support this claim. Nowhere is this more evident than the Thanksgiving proclamations that have been made by Congress, Presidents, and State Governors, with the Federal government alone issuing over 170 of them to date.

I don't expect many individuals today bother to read the presidential proclamations that are released
each year, yet alone the historical ones accessible now on the internet. A reading of the earlier ones though reveals the religious nature that our nation's leaders applied to this occasion. Consider this prime example from the country's most notable Founding Father:

Proclamation for a Public Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, October 3, 1789,
by George Washington - 1st President of the United States of America​

“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor - and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God ... Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be - That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks - for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation - for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence ... and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions ...to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue ...”​

Is there any separation of church and state being exhibited here? Is there any political correctness or ambiguity for accommodating irreligious people or those of other, non-Christian religions? Is there any doubt of who deserves the thanks, glory and honor for our country's many blessings?

It seems Americans today are still committed to sitting down with family, enjoying a fine meal, and celebrating Thanksgiving day. But today's suppressed Christian culture has diluted the religious holiday. It's still common perhaps to hear people acknowledge their blessings, to express gratefulness, to even give thanks. But how often are those blessings specifically attributed to God? I'd suggest that such connection is being lost in our secular society.

To those who sit down this year with any kind of meal or life worthy of giving thanks, I'd ask, who are you thanking? If it's not the God of the universe who governs all things, then what's the point? Giving thanks is only rational if there's a real, specific recipient. For 400 years, Americans recognized and publicly thanked the Christian God of the Bible for their blessings. That tradition continues on today with the Thanksgiving holiday, but honestly, can only be done if God's openly invited to the table.

Those who planted, harvested, packaged the food we eat.

 

[wellwisher]

Geez. I think this belongs in a debate section, since this seems less about a question and answer, then it does about preaching some version of history no one agrees with and would happily challenge, were this in a debate forum. One would happily point out that America was not founded as a Christian nation by the founder fathers. But they don't teach that fact in religious schools, do they?

How is that possible, when most of the original settlers came from the Christian Countries of Europe; England, France, Spain, Germany, Dutch, Italians, Irish, etc. Later, the Eastern Europeans would come; Poland, Russia, etc. which were also Christians. Religion was strong up into the 1960's and before that.

If you recall the Pilgrims, from England, who settled in Jamestown and Plymouth, came to America for religious freedom. Pilgrim is a word connected to religious people who migrate to special places for them to worship. The Pilgrims are associated with the foundation. The Pilgrims were the founding fathers of the founding fathers.

The Catholic Church formed about 400AD based on a merger of Christianity with Rome; official religion. This union would form the Holy Roman Empire centered in Rome; Vatican.

Rome, at the time of the merger, had a large empire in Europe and these people were converted to Christians. The original Holy Roman Empire, lasted about 1000 years until the 1400's; Age of Exploration. There was split in the Church via the Protestant Movement in Germany; Martin Luther and the Protestant Church. This began a trend of the once unified Catholic Church, dividing into smaller regional Christian Churches; Church of England. Religious freedom part of the American since it was to way to allow diversity of worship to the one Christian God; Jesus, who was above them all. With Europeans from all places coming to America, from Christian countries but not all Catholic, faith in the spirit required we all get along and believe as you wish.

The original Thanksgiving was an interesting story. The Pilgrim originally set up a Community Charter that was similar to Socialism. Everyone would work and pool their resources, which would then be shared. The problem was not everyone wanted to work but everyone expected to eat. The young men in particular wanted to enjoy the pleasant summers near Cape Cod exploring. When fall came, the colony was not prepared for winter and many of the older members died.

The next Spring, they decided to try a different way approach based on a free market approach, where one could keep any extra resources they acquire and sell trade it for equal value. That summer the young men worked harder and created a surplus and profit. In the Fall, they had a feast to give thanks for their bounty.

The Spirit of God had given them a sign and they took it. Religious freedom also allows for modification of dogma to meet needs. It is not just one way or the highway. This began the story of rugged American individualism, with a spirit of being all of the same Christian family; human rights.

Having faith in something bigger than yourself, allows enough control over the ego, to where you can live within a creative chaos and be happy; freedom of expression of free people. The Atheists, who also were a spinoff from the division of the Catholic Church, lost that faith and cannot control the ego so division occurs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Although I do understand (and agree with) what you are wanting to get across, I cannot help but wonder whether I wouldn’t find your post a little offensive, if I were myself a Native American…

I suspect that the fault lies in your interpretation rather than her intent.

 

[Left Coast]

***MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES***

 

[Revoltingest]

I thank no one.
The day is about eating turkey.
I'll compliment the cook though.

 

[Windwalker]

How is that possible, when most of the original settlers came from the Christian Countries of Europe; England, France, Spain, Germany, Dutch, Italians, Irish, etc. Later, the Eastern Europeans would come; Poland, Russia, etc. which were also Christians. Religion was strong up into the 1960's and before that.

The answer is quite simple. They were not the ones who created the US Constitution. They were the settlers. Not the founding fathers of the nation. Those men were Enlightenment thinkers. They were Deists, not Puritans. And while some had the Christian faith as their personal believe, the nation was not established by them to be a Christian nation. There is a major difference between those.

They believed everyone should have the right to practice whatever form of religion they wanted to. Unlike the Christians seeking political power today. They want to turn America into a Christian only nation. Something the founding fathers of this nation found hard to protect against happening.

Pilgrims were the founding fathers of the founding fathers.

And their father's father's father's were at one point worshippers of Thor and Odin. So what? The U.S. Constitution is not a Christian charter. America was not ever intended to be a Christian Nation. It was a nation that protected religious freedom for any strain of Christianity, or whatever form of God any citizen choose to worship.

You do understand the difference here? Do you think groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses would be allowed to exist here if this was a Christian Nation? Would you want the government to decide who was Christian or not?

The Catholic Church formed about 400AD based on a merger of Christianity with Rome; official religion. This union would form the Holy Roman Empire centered in Rome; Vatican.

This is the dream of the Christian Nationalists in America. To turn America into a Christian nation, as opposed to a welcoming pluralistic society, the way this nation was originally all about in its foundation. Ironically, it's also the way early Christianity used to be, before it became an established religion.

Having faith in something bigger than yourself, allows enough control over the ego, to where you can live within a creative chaos and be happy; freedom of expression of free people.

Let's put a finer point on this. Having faith in God and an ego willing to surrender itself, to die to itself in order to find itself in the being of God itself, is a valid path to overcoming the ego.

However, simply "believing" that God exists and that you are his chosen tribe, is in fact feeding the ego. I cannot count how many Christian preachers and politicians are nothing but all ego. Calling the name of God down for their political causes, as if they were some anointed prophet or prophetess of God almighty. Pure ego. "I'm called by God to lead America back to God!". There are droves of these prophets of Baal in the ranks of the Christian Nationalist movement. They define it.

The Atheists, who also were a spinoff from the division of the Catholic Church, lost that faith and cannot control the ego so division occurs.

Actually, the modern, neo-Atheists, those like Dawkins, and Harris, and Hitchens, and the other anti-theist branch of atheism, are born out of response to the Christians who rose out of the womb of modern American protestant fundamentalist ranks. Ex-Christians typically are Ex-Evangelical/Fundamentalists. Of course there are Ex-Catholics too, but in my experience most are former fundamentalists.

And what you consider them as "losing faith", I consider to be more accurately understood as losing belief in the things they were being told to believe. Faith is a matter of the heart, and many of them still have faith there is something bigger and better than being told they have to divorce their reasoning minds in order to have faith.

So I see them as losing beliefs, not faith. It is their faith that those beliefs were inadequate to support their faith. There's a big difference here as well.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I thank no one.
The day is about eating turkey.

And napping after.

 

[blü 2]

From the 16th century explorers, to the 17th century pilgrims and settlers, to the 18th century Founding Fathers, and continuing to the mid 20th century, America has embraced Christianity. Though the secular educational system of today won't teach it and popular culture rejects it, there's a prevalence of laws, institutions, monuments, historical records, and quotes we have to support this claim. Nowhere is this more evident than the Thanksgiving proclamations that have been made by Congress, Presidents, and State Governors, with the Federal government alone issuing over 170 of them to date.

I don't expect many individuals today bother to read the presidential proclamations that are released each year, yet alone the historical ones accessible now on the internet. A reading of the earlier ones though reveals the religious nature that our nation's leaders applied to this occasion. Consider this prime example from the country's most notable Founding Father:

Proclamation for a Public Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, October 3, 1789,
by George Washington - 1st President of the United States of America​

“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor - and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God ... Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be - That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks - for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation - for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence ... and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions ...to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue ...”​

Is there any separation of church and state being exhibited here? Is there any political correctness or ambiguity for accommodating irreligious people or those of other, non-Christian religions? Is there any doubt of who deserves the thanks, glory and honor for our country's many blessings?

It seems Americans today are still committed to sitting down with family, enjoying a fine meal, and celebrating Thanksgiving day. But today's suppressed Christian culture has diluted the religious holiday. It's still common perhaps to hear people acknowledge their blessings, to express gratefulness, to even give thanks. But how often are those blessings specifically attributed to God? I'd suggest that such connection is being lost in our secular society.

To those who sit down this year with any kind of meal or life worthy of giving thanks, I'd ask, who are you thanking? If it's not the God of the universe who governs all things, then what's the point? Giving thanks is only rational if there's a real, specific recipient. For 400 years, Americans recognized and publicly thanked the Christian God of the Bible for their blessings. That tradition continues on today with the Thanksgiving holiday, but honestly, can only be done if God's openly invited to the table.

Somebody (D G Rossetti and Chesterton are mentioned, but no source is ever cited) once joked, "The worst moment for an atheist is when he's really thankful and has no one to thank".

Way back when I drove cabs in my student days, I noticed that I occasionally murmured "Thanks, T.G." when I'd had a piece of timely and drought-breaking luck in finding a good fare. I also noticed that "T.G." stood for Taxi God. And when I say "I noticed", I mean that I'd already done it before I noticed I'd done it.

So no argument from me that humans may feel grateful when they benefit from good luck. There'll be an evolutionary advantage in such reactions, I dare say, though I can't be more specific than that.

(But I never noticed myself blaming bad luck on the Taxi Demon.)

 

[Viker]

Although I do understand (and agree with) what you are wanting to get across, I cannot help but wonder whether I wouldn’t find your post a little offensive, if I were myself a Native American…

After all, it is not as if they wilfully gave your ancestors their lands. Their lands were stolen from them by your ancestors. Violently.

Perhaps it is not thanks that you owe the Natives, but rather some serious sorries?
I don’t know, just reflecting on the post here.

Humbly,
Hermit

I'm Creole, of white, native and of African ancestry. I am mostly white but do not forget the whole of who I am. I feel both empathy for one group of ancestors and regret over the actions of the other. So, what's a child of this sort of ancestry to do? Thank a God that turned a blind eye? Thank the aggressors? Ignore it all and obliviously chime in on a stream of seasonal thanks?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

From the 16th century explorers, to the 17th century pilgrims and settlers, to the 18th century Founding Fathers, and continuing to the mid 20th century, America has embraced Christianity. .

Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I'm Creole, of white, native and of African ancestry. I am mostly white but do not forget the whole of who I am. I feel both empathy for one group of ancestors and regret over the actions of the other. So, what's a child of this sort of ancestry to do? Thank a God that turned a blind eye? Thank the aggressors? Ignore it all and obliviously chime in on a stream of seasonal thanks?

I too am of very mixed heritage. Despite never quite fitting in anywhere, it’s a grateful thing to be!

One grows up knowing that “truths” that do not include everyone’s stories (most “truths”, basically) in actual fact, become lies.

Real truths are complex and confusing - that’s why they “set us free” from the blindness of single-mindedness.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[Ponder This]

From the 16th century explorers, to the 17th century pilgrims and settlers, to the 18th century Founding Fathers, and continuing to the mid 20th century, America has embraced Christianity. Though the secular educational system of today won't teach it and popular culture rejects it, there's a prevalence of laws, institutions, monuments, historical records, and quotes we have to support this claim. Nowhere is this more evident than the Thanksgiving proclamations that have been made by Congress, Presidents, and State Governors, with the Federal government alone issuing over 170 of them to date.

I don't expect many individuals today bother to read the presidential proclamations that are released each year, yet alone the historical ones accessible now on the internet. A reading of the earlier ones though reveals the religious nature that our nation's leaders applied to this occasion. Consider this prime example from the country's most notable Founding Father:

Proclamation for a Public Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, October 3, 1789,
by George Washington - 1st President of the United States of America​

“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor - and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God ... Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be - That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks - for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation - for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence ... and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions ...to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue ...”​

Is there any separation of church and state being exhibited here? Is there any political correctness or ambiguity for accommodating irreligious people or those of other, non-Christian religions? Is there any doubt of who deserves the thanks, glory and honor for our country's many blessings?

It seems Americans today are still committed to sitting down with family, enjoying a fine meal, and celebrating Thanksgiving day. But today's suppressed Christian culture has diluted the religious holiday. It's still common perhaps to hear people acknowledge their blessings, to express gratefulness, to even give thanks. But how often are those blessings specifically attributed to God? I'd suggest that such connection is being lost in our secular society.

To those who sit down this year with any kind of meal or life worthy of giving thanks, I'd ask, who are you thanking? If it's not the God of the universe who governs all things, then what's the point? Giving thanks is only rational if there's a real, specific recipient. For 400 years, Americans recognized and publicly thanked the Christian God of the Bible for their blessings. That tradition continues on today with the Thanksgiving holiday, but honestly, can only be done if God's openly invited to the table.

Thanksgiving isn't just about saying the words, "Thank you."
A person can say those words almost anytime. A person can give thanks to God almost any time. Thanksgiving is a reciprocal action taken in return.

In Thanksgiving, a meal is shared. Food is the abundance which was made possible through the help of others. Sharing that food, with those who helped make it possible, is the reciprocal action.

 

[Alien826]

Somebody (D G Rossetti and Chesterton are mentioned, but no source is ever cited) once joked, "The worst moment for an atheist is when he's really thankful and has no one to thank".

I like the question, "What does an atheist cry when having an orgasm?" Humanists say "Oh man, Oh man!".

It's all been said otherwise. One thought I had while reading the OP was that the only thing I took away from it was that Christians often say Christian things.

 

[blü 2]

One thought I had while reading the OP was that the only thing I took away from it was that Christians often say Christian things.

Maybe the problem is all the other things they say. Particularly over on the right.

 

[Augustus]

If you recall the Pilgrims, from England, who settled in Jamestown and Plymouth, came to America for religious freedom.

They went to Holland for religious freedom. They went to America from Holland for a variety of other reasons: economic and quality of life, to avoid the temptations of sin in European cities, to maintain group cohesion and stop people leaving, to be missionaries, etc.

Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.

Although slightly different from how we see deism today.

Enlightenment era deists tended to be Providential Deists, who added the belief that god had intended humans to flourish in his act of creation to that of a non-interfering god.

It was basically a liberal Protestant form of Divine Providence and morality, separated from the institutional, theological and miraculous aspects of Christianity (which they rejected).

IMO, as an academic exercise in taxonomy, it probably makes more sense to think of it as a sect of Christianity than a new belief system, but this doesn't change the fact that they didn't want America to be institutionally Christian.

They tended to have a very Whiggish view of history, which basically meant that they were the pinnacle of "educated, enlightened" humanity, and that the path of history had inexorably been leading up to people becoming like them and over time, more and more people would become enlightened enough to realise that they were right.

IMO, what the founding fathers had in common was not a commitment to institutional Christianity, but a common understanding of Providence.

Not sure what this would mean for modern Americans committed to acting in the spirit of the FF