Corporal punishment

[Kenny]

It would be a lot more effective without the hitting part. And look how you've described it .... "it is more the embarrassment than the actual swat." How do you think the child internalizes that embarrassment from being physically hit? You should listen to what other posters learned by being punished in this manner as a child - none of it was positive. And all available empirical evidence backs that up.

You don't seriously think it's not "hitting" if you use a weapon instead of your hand, do you?

The world will not spank them. And if they do, it's considered a crime.

I'm not sure how you went from point a to point b.

Were you hit when you were a child?

 

[Kenny]

How do you know they understood, of did they just say they understood out of fear of getting hit again? In my experience from parenting and teaching, there are plenty of other more non-violent ways to explain to a child how lying isn't a good thing, that would include how sometimes it is a good thing. It was a long discussion whenever I taught the novel Number the Stars to my Grade 5 class.

I guess because they stopped? I think that was a good way of knowing they understood.

What happens when applying for a job you lie on an application? Or if you lie to a policeman?

How did you teach your children not to lie?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not sure how you went from point a to point b.

Sorry, what?

Were you hit when you were a child?

Nope.

 

[Vinayaka]

I guess because they stopped? I think that was a good way of knowing they understood.

What happens when applying for a job you lie on an application?

How did you teach your children not to lie?

In Number the Stars the Danish people were smuggling their Jewish friends over to Sweden, and had to deceive and lie to the Nazis who had invaded Denmark, in order to save lives. So it's not a cut and dry situation, this lying business.

It's likely the lying did stop, but was it because they understood, or was it because of fear. With my own children, we had long discussions, and presented scenarios. In my world view, we strive to go for the greater good, and distinguish between a selfish lie and a lie that is helpful. I often went to great lengths at explaining.

 

[SkepticThinker]

In Number the Stars the Danish people were smuggling their Jewish friends over to Sweden, and had to deceive and lie to the Nazis who had invaded Denmark, in order to save lives. So it's not a cut and dry situation, this lying business.

It's likely the lying did stop, but was it because they understood, or was it because of fear. With my own children, we had long discussions, and presented scenarios. In my world view, we strive to go for the greater good, and distinguish between a selfish lie and a lie that is helpful. I often went to great lengths at explaining.

I was raised this way as well.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, what?

From a loving spank to a weaponization

Nope.

OK... did you have children?

 

[Vinayaka]

I guess because they stopped? I think that was a good way of knowing they understood.

What happens when applying for a job you lie on an application? Or if you lie to a policeman?

How did you teach your children not to lie?

Sorry, I missed a couple of the questions. Lying to a policeman could mean jail time, eventually. I don't think there would be corporal punishment involved unless you live in a place like Iran where lashing is still a punishment. Lying on a job application simply isn't necessary usually, although my son felt he had to do it. Mostly he withheld the information that he had a chemical engineering degree when he applied for a job that only requested he have a chemical engineering technology degree. he did tell them later.

So did you use corporal punishment for anything besides lying?

 

[Windwalker]

What about war?
Self defence when another country attacks us
Or should we roll over?

We are talking about corporal punishment. Not warfare or self defense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

From a loving spank to a weaponization

I got it from the words you typed to me:

Second... don't use your hand (hands are for blessing)
Third... get a small paddle that has a ball attached to it by a rubber band. Remove rubber and ball.

OK... did you have children?

I was a nanny to my niece and nephew for the first 5 years of their lives and have spent gads of time with them since then.
Corporal punishment has never even crossed my mind throughout all these years (they are 12 and 13 now). And yet, they are now respectful, sweet, kind, mindful, empathic adolescents.

I remember when they were very young, my brother-in-law expressing an interest in corporal punishment because he grew up with it in Trinidad but my sister put the kibosh on that immediately. And then helped him see how it was not actually beneficial to him and had actually left emotional scars instead.

 

[Kenny]

.

In Number the Stars the Danish people were smuggling their Jewish friends over to Sweden, and had to deceive and lie to the Nazis who had invaded Denmark, in order to save lives. So it's not a cut and dry situation, this lying business.

Yes... that does make it different. I certainly wasn't referencing that application and I'm pretty sure today they do understand that difference in application.

It's likely the lying did stop, but was it because they understood, or was it because of fear. With my own children, we had long discussions, and presented scenarios. In my world view, we strive to go for the greater good, and distinguish between a selfish lie and a lie that is helpful. I often went to great lengths at explaining.

Glad you were able to reach them.

My children do thank me today and are well adjusted so I am pretty confident that they understood.

Their point of reference that they remembered the most was that it didn't matter what they did wrong, they were always loved and accepted and weren't "branded" for how many time they did something wrong.

One person said, "Not wrong, just different". I think it is a good application here.

 

[Windwalker]

There is an exception to this, explained by Krishna

Does Krishna call killing another a good? That was my point. The term I would use would be an unfortunate, and sometimes necessary evil. But never should it be celebrated as a good.

And again, the topic was about corporal punishment, using violence as a form of a system of justice, or worse as a form of corrective measures for young children. I find that using violence begets more violence. As Ghandi put it perfectly, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Abused children, become child abusers themselves, for instance.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was raised this way as well.

Yes, times are changing. Sadly, as another poster said, I was too late to gain the parenting knowledge I now have, and did spank my children a couple of times. But it never worked, and I felt guilty. It took some very difficult prayaschitta to overcome a portion of that guilt, and I still carry some. That's another long term side effect of it. Besides the poor victim the perpetrator has to live with it, and if you believe in karma as I do, will be meted out the same.

 

[Vinayaka]

.

Yes... that does make it different. I certainly wasn't referencing that application and I'm pretty sure today they do understand that difference in application.



Glad you were able to reach them.

My children do thank me today and are well adjusted so I am pretty confident that they understood.

Their point of reference that they remembered the most was that it didn't matter what they did wrong, they were always loved and accepted and weren't "branded" for how many time they did something wrong.

One person said, "Not wrong, just different". I think it is a good application here.

Of course it also depends on degrees. A couple of times in their lifetimes isn't the same as daily beatings. I still view it as unnecessary, but not to the same degree. Also, there is no evidence for you to know with certainty that it was the spanking that worked, Your children may well have turned out well adjusted despite that.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, I missed a couple of the questions. Lying to a policeman could mean jail time, eventually. I don't think there would be corporal punishment involved unless you live in a place like Iran where lashing is still a punishment. Lying on a job application simply isn't necessary usually, although my son felt he had to do it. Mostly he withheld the information that he had a chemical engineering degree when he applied for a job that only requested he have a chemical engineering technology degree. he did tell them later.

So did you use corporal punishment for anything besides lying?

So, as I explained to my children, if you lie to a policeman, jail time means a jailer that has no love for you - but that I loved him. That if he/she is in a problem, I need to know that they are telling me the truth to be able to help him/her (the boy that cried wolf too many times).

What else did I use it for? Good question... 50 years ago.... and not used very often.

If memory serves me correctly... blatant defiance and disrespect

Didn't spank in the double digits age.

We had good communication. Daddy walks were always helpful.

 

[Kenny]

Of course it also depends on degrees. A couple of times in their lifetimes isn't the same as daily beatings. I still view it as unnecessary, but not to the same degree.

Certainly I wouldn't call "failing beatings" a loving spank. Daily beatings creates hatred IMV.

Also, there is no evidence for you to know with certainty that it was the spanking that worked, Your children may well have turned out well adjusted despite that.

I'm not sure this is applicable. Could I equally make the statement that you have no evidence that not spanking worked? That your children may well have turned out well adjusted despite that you didn't spank?

 

[Kenny]

I got it from the words you typed to me:

Second... don't use your hand (hands are for blessing)
Third... get a small paddle that has a ball attached to it by a rubber band. Remove rubber and ball.


I was a nanny to my niece and nephew for the first 5 years of their lives and have spent gads of time with them since then.
Corporal punishment has never even crossed my mind throughout all these years (they are 12 and 13 now). And yet, they are now respectful, sweet, kind, mindful, empathic adolescents.

I remember when they were very young, my brother-in-law expressing an interest in corporal punishment because he grew up with it in Trinidad but my sister put the kibosh on that immediately. And then helped him see how it was not actually beneficial to him and had actually left emotional scars instead.

Congratulations.

My children are also respectful, sweet, kind, mindful and empathic adults. Probably more complicated than just "did you or did you not spank".

I would say, however, that being a Nanny isn't the same as being a parent. (Not saying that parenting must include loving spanks) just that spanking doesn't equate to psychological damage (unless done wrong)

 

[Vinayaka]

So, as I explained to my children, if you lie to a policeman, jail time means a jailer that has no love for you - but that I loved him. That if he/she is in a problem, I need to know that they are telling me the truth to be able to help him/her (the boy that cried wolf too many times).

What else did I use it for? Good question... 50 years ago.... and not used very often.

If memory serves me correctly... blatant defiance and disrespect

Didn't spank in the double digits age.

We had good communication. Daddy walks were always helpful.

50 years ago is a long time. There was far less information about alternatives then. That was before any parenting or self-help books came out. Part of the OP was about how it's changing, and the growing list of countries that have banned it. If I remember correctly from this morning, Sweden was first, and it was less than 50 years ago. The rate of change in society is accelerating, and I can see that list growing within a few years even, as more and more people realise it's not as useful as it might seem to be. So ... if put in the same circumstances knowing what you know today, would you do it again? I know I wouldn't. My view has absolutely changed. Ironically I'm still in communication with the last student I strapped, back in 1979. He bugs me to this day. I was going on the advice of the principal, and it was the norm at that school. I was clueless. It definitely did not work.

 

[Vinayaka]

Certainly I wouldn't call "failing beatings" a loving spank. Daily beatings creates hatred IMV.



I'm not sure this is applicable. Could I equally make the statement that you have no evidence that not spanking worked? That your children may well have turned out well adjusted despite that you didn't spank?

I never said it wasn't the reason, I was just pondering that it may not be the reason.

 

[Kenny]

50 years ago is a long time. There was far less information about alternatives then. That was before any parenting or self-help books came out. Part of the OP was about how it's changing, and the growing list of countries that have banned it. If I remember correctly from this morning, Sweden was first, and it was less than 50 years ago. The rate of change in society is accelerating, and I can see that list growing within a few years even, as more and more people realise it's not as useful as it might seem to be. So ... if put in the same circumstances knowing what you know today, would you do it again? I know I wouldn't. My view has absolutely changed. Ironically I'm still in communication with the last student I strapped, back in 1979. He bugs me to this day. I was going on the advice of the principal, and it was the norm at that school. I was clueless. It definitely did not work.

Yes... helps books were not as available back then.

Looking at today's youth, it is questionable as whether we need a few loving spanks or we need to stop beatings... but certainly something is wrong with today's youth and/or the self-help books are either not being read or not very effective.

Would I do it today? Good question.

Probably less but still a tool in extreme cases.

 

[Kenny]

I never said it wasn't the reason, I was just pondering that it may not be the reason.

Understood. I still think that question is equally relevant or irrelevant no matter who it is addressed to. If the results are good, whatever the cocktail of methods used, apparently it worked.

Some people use a time out or a week's restriction of privileges (punishment). I didn't like that method.