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For Christians who think God considers abortion to be murder

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, otherwise the individual who caused the woman to give birth prematurely would be charged with murder. Instead it's up to the prospective father to decide if he wants to ask the courts to fine the offender... if he doesn't then the offender gets off without any penalty whatsoever. This states that its up to the family to decide if the loss of the fetus was 'wrong' in any way... well, at least it says it's up the the prospective father, since the woman's opinion isn't even taken into account. How is it that so many Christians claim that their god is against abortion and considers it to be murder, when the bible states otherwise?

Rather sad that so many Christians don't even know what their holy book says on the subject.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.
I tend to be pro choice on the legal side, however you are technically in a gray area. In scripture abortion is not murder, but it is discouraged generally.

While it is not declared to be murder a fetus has value and is not inhuman in scripture. The scriptures of the bible consider each child to be a gift, or it can at least be inferred that they are. You can also infer they are miracles. This is not new or coming from modern politics, and it is very old reasoning. There is an emphasis upon reproducing peace loving children to fill this world with peace even as the warlike people destroy one another, and so the world will be filled with peace by reproduction instead of violence. Its a simple concept: violent people claim that they can create order with their armories and their hierarchical governance, but they fail. They cause the violence that they want to extinguish.

That exact quote "Abortion is murder" does not exist in any of the books, however there are some controversial texts.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew a you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”

Hebrews 7:9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

Notice a trend that one child is like a nation potentially, so when you destroy one fetus you are potentially destroying a nation. My interpretation of scripture is that in scripture it is not murder, but it is a great loss. Murder is the killing of a person who has divine qualities. Roughly interpreted this is someone who is breathing and has a mind. There is no need to delineate who is or is not good enough to live. That is left up to parents and midwives. It is a judgment call.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, otherwise the individual who caused the woman to give birth prematurely would be charged with murder. Instead it's up to the prospective father to decide if he wants to ask the courts to fine the offender... if he doesn't then the offender gets off without any penalty whatsoever. This states that its up to the family to decide if the loss of the fetus was 'wrong' in any way... well, at least it says it's up the the prospective father, since the woman's opinion isn't even taken into account. How is it that so many Christians claim that their god is against abortion and considers it to be murder, when the bible states otherwise?

Rather sad that so many Christians don't even know what their holy book says on the subject.
Verse 23.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
but it is discouraged generally.

Surely since you likely have read your bible, you may notice a few striking verse where birth seems to actually be lamented, (in Ecclesiastes, Job, in the circumstance of Judas) such that in my reading of the text, I came away not necessarily thinking that the bible writers were very optimistic. Especially in the situation with Judas, which seems to be the most explicit allusion to a condemnation of anti-social behavior, by Jesus, with a strong implication that those who seems ready to commit such behavior, via lack of proper moral wisdom, ought not be born. E.g. harming life for profit, like the biblical character supposedly did

So my point, and in all probability, the point of the bible writers, is that the potentiality you reference is clearly two-sided.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Verse 23.

From what I can tell, verse 23 seems like it might only be referencing the health of the woman, if a miscarriage occurred? In a rather austere fashion, I don't think it is really concerned with, at minimum, the emotions of the woman in question, which surely would have undergone irreparable trauma, even if she was physically ok. Although I am not a biblical scholar, I would assume that if the child was born injured, but lived, then that would likely count as a serious offense as well - but it seems unclear what the stance would be, if it were born, but did not live
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Verse 23.
Where does it state that abortion is murder is Exodus 23?

Exodus 23
New International Version

Laws of Justice and Mercy
23 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.

2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.

4 “If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.

6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. 7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

8 “Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent.

9 “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

Sabbath Laws
10 “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what is left. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.

12 “Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and so that the slave born in your household and the foreigner living among you may be refreshed.

13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.

The Three Annual Festivals
14 “Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.

15 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread; for seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

16 “Celebrate the Festival of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field.

“Celebrate the Festival of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field.

17 “Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord.

18 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast.

“The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning.

19 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

God’s Angel to Prepare the Way
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, otherwise the individual who caused the woman to give birth prematurely would be charged with murder. Instead it's up to the prospective father to decide if he wants to ask the courts to fine the offender... if he doesn't then the offender gets off without any penalty whatsoever. This states that its up to the family to decide if the loss of the fetus was 'wrong' in any way... well, at least it says it's up the the prospective father, since the woman's opinion isn't even taken into account. How is it that so many Christians claim that their god is against abortion and considers it to be murder, when the bible states otherwise?

Rather sad that so many Christians don't even know what their holy book says on the subject.

To me it looks like it is saying in the highlighted part, that if the baby that is born prematurely is dead then someone should pay with their life. It certainly looks as if the unborn baby is considered to be a human being.
There other Bible verses where the same implication can be drawn about the status of the unborn baby.
That probably does not mean however that every abortion is murder, even if it is killing a human being.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
To me it looks like it is saying in the highlighted part, that if the baby that is born prematurely is dead then someone should pay with their life. It certainly looks as if the unborn baby is considered to be a human being.

When it talks about a serious injury, in all probability including what happens to the (living?) newborn, I wonder then, if what the rule is saying even is effective: what if the visibility/detect-ability of the injury to the newborn was highly delayed?
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
When it talks about a serious injury, in all probability including what happens to the (living?) newborn, I wonder then, if what the rule is saying even is effective: what if the visibility/detect-ability of the injury to the newborn was highly delayed?

I don't think that means that it would not be an effective rule.
It would cause people to be careful of not injuring pregnant women for a start.
If an injury could not be determined then I suppose that would mean there was no retribution.
I doubt that anything that showed up years later would count but that doesn't mean it was not a effective law.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The woman giving “birth prematurely“, is just that: a premature birth. And no harm occurred.

Why are you trying to equate a premature birth with death of a fetus?
Verse 23 talks about the death, and “life for life”.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Surely since you likely have read your bible, you will notice many, many verses where birth is actually lamented, (in Ecclesiastes, Job, in the circumstance of Judas)
I recall many that talk about how wonderful it is to have children, but I recall what you are referring to. Here is something from the last chapter of Job whose sadness is repaired by giving him wealth and ten children: [Job 42:12-17 NIV] At the beginning of the story his trial begins with the loss of his children, which makes him sad and wish he was never born; but this changes. At the end he is comforted with wealth and with ten children, to all of whom he is able to give inheritances. What a fortunate man he is at the end.

Sometimes Ecclesiastes may seem negative:
[Ecc 7:3 NIV] 3 Frustration is better than laughter, because a sad face is good for the heart.
[Ecc 7:5 NIV] 5 It is better to heed the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools.
[Ecc 7:13 NIV] 13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked?

Ecclesiastes is not against happiness, but it is against careless living.

[Ecc 8:1 NIV] 1 Who is like the wise? Who knows the explanation of things? A person's wisdom brightens their face and changes its hard appearance.

And it is pro life:

[Ecc 9:4 NIV] 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

When it says that everything is 'Meaningless' it is talking about good times and hard times. It means you have no control and that you should enjoy the good times but when the bad times come, remember that both are from God. When you get lucky don't believe you are on a lucky streak, because there is no lucky streak. Luck has no meaning. Sometimes good happens and sometimes bad, and you cannot control it or manipulate the luck that comes or find a pattern in it.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The woman giving “birth prematurely“, is just that: a premature birth. And no harm occurred.

Why are you trying to equate a premature birth with death of a fetus?
Verse 23 talks about the death, and “life for life”.

I think it is saying that a premature birth would have been brought on by the injury to the pregnant woman.
The life for life of verse 23 seems to be equating a dead prem birth baby with a dead human.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I recall many that talk about how wonderful it is to have children, but I recall what you are referring to. Here is something from the last chapter of Job whose sadness is repaired by giving him wealth and ten children: [Job 42:12-17 NIV] At the beginning of the story his trial begins with the loss of his children, which makes him sad and wish he was never born; but this changes. At the end he is comforted with wealth and with ten children, to all of whom he is able to give inheritances. What a fortunate man he is at the end.

Sometimes Ecclesiastes may seem negative:
[Ecc 7:3 NIV] 3 Frustration is better than laughter, because a sad face is good for the heart.
[Ecc 7:5 NIV] 5 It is better to heed the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools.
[Ecc 7:13 NIV] 13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked?

Ecclesiastes is not against happiness, but it is against careless living.

[Ecc 8:1 NIV] 1 Who is like the wise? Who knows the explanation of things? A person's wisdom brightens their face and changes its hard appearance.

And it is pro life:

[Ecc 9:4 NIV] 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

When it says that everything is 'Meaningless' it is talking about good times and hard times. It means you have no control and that you should enjoy the good times but when the bad times come, remember that both are from God. When you get lucky don't believe you are on a lucky streak, because there is no lucky streak. Luck has no meaning. Sometimes good happens and sometimes bad, and you cannot control it or manipulate the luck that comes or find a pattern in it.

Well it could be that the verses I was talking about are not as numerous as I recall, but I recall reading some that were nonetheless striking, and where the point of birth seems at least memetic, if that's the right word.

I do have a few off-topic notes, that perhaps can be dismissed. From your presentation, which comes from the old testament, it might be important to point out that the application of Christianity might render concepts like 'life' and 'inheritance' in more of a metaphorical way. In previous Christian eras, it may have been normative for a monk to suffer a life of hardship, and never create progeny. And then his 'inheritance' was supposedly to occur in heaven. I have no idea what a monk or anchorite would get out of reading the conclusion of Job

As for the 'living' in Ecc 9:4, it seems that the Christian logic might easily apply that to mean the 'saved.' So that would probably turn that kind of upside down as well.

But I guess I just point these things out to illustrate, as I have many times, that it seems extremely difficult for me to find a theological through-line in the bible anyhow
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think it is saying that a premature birth would have been brought on by the injury to the pregnant woman.
The life for life of verse 23 seems to be equating a dead prem birth baby with a dead human.

In all fairness to the context, now that I read the chapters and verses in proximity to this verse, I don't think many modern people can easily predict or assume very much, about hardly any of the judgements that follow many of the rules. (this, despite "western civilization having the bible at its foundation") The proscriptions and prescriptions here do seem radically alien to what we experience. Even the methods - for example, even allowing, in verse 23 here, a family member to judge the cost. In modern times, we leave that kind of thing to the state
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Jeremiah 1:4-5 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew a you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

This is about Jeremiah's difficult decision on becoming a prophet. I don't think everyone who was a fetus was appointed as a prophet to the nations.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, otherwise the individual who caused the woman to give birth prematurely would be charged with murder. Instead it's up to the prospective father to decide if he wants to ask the courts to fine the offender... if he doesn't then the offender gets off without any penalty whatsoever. This states that its up to the family to decide if the loss of the fetus was 'wrong' in any way... well, at least it says it's up the the prospective father, since the woman's opinion isn't even taken into account. How is it that so many Christians claim that their god is against abortion and considers it to be murder, when the bible states otherwise?

Rather sad that so many Christians don't even know what their holy book says on the subject.

This seems to be another example of a property crime. It is obviously not a capital crime.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
To me it looks like it is saying in the highlighted part, that if the baby that is born prematurely is dead then someone should pay with their life. It certainly looks as if the unborn baby is considered to be a human being.
There other Bible verses where the same implication can be drawn about the status of the unborn baby.
That probably does not mean however that every abortion is murder, even if it is killing a human being.

Jewish law interprets the loss/harm as referring to the mother.

Abortion: Halakhic Perspectives | Jewish Women's Archive
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
To me it looks like it is saying in the highlighted part, that if the baby that is born prematurely is dead then someone should pay with their life. It certainly looks as if the unborn baby is considered to be a human being.
There other Bible verses where the same implication can be drawn about the status of the unborn baby.
That probably does not mean however that every abortion is murder, even if it is killing a human being.

That means if there is serious injury to the WOMAN who was pregnant. SHE is considered a human being, but the fetus is NOT. The man who caused the premature birth isn't considered a murderer, because he didn't kill a human being. All he did was to kill a potential human being that the potential father can choose to have the offender fined for.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
From what I can tell, verse 23 seems like it might only be referencing the health of the woman, if a miscarriage occurred? In a rather austere fashion, I don't think it is really concerned with, at minimum, the emotions of the woman in question, which surely would have undergone irreparable trauma, even if she was physically ok. Although I am not a biblical scholar, I would assume that if the child was born injured, but lived, then that would likely count as a serious offense as well - but it seems unclear what the stance would be, if it were born, but did not live
I discussed that with another user on here. See this post. You can read further, if it's not clear. I hope it's clear though.
 
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