Why Hinduism?

[firedragon]

This thread is opened to understand Hinduism better. My knowledge of Hinduism is very limited, but what I do know is that Hinduism is probably the most generic name used for the largest library of philosophies in the world. I remember vividly a scholar of sociology of religion once stated in a Youtube video that "the Buddha was teaching hinduism to hindus" and all the Buddhists who watched it got pretty ticked off.

I know that Hindu's don't proselytise. But as a group or a whole population, in global statistics Hinduism has been, is and in my opinion "will be" the most stable through time to come. Their number don't change much. This indicates that though people rarely convert to Hinduism (as a general statement), they don't convert out of Hinduism to other theologies and there has to be a reason for that conviction. I would like to understand that better.

Hinduism contains atheistic philosophies as well. As I understand the Advaitha (not advanta vedantha) arm is atheistic but indepth understanding is needed.

Though you don't proselytise, would you be kind enough to share some thoughts on "why hinduism"? So of course this might entail the question "Why not other theologies but Hinduism". Thank you very much.

I am editing this to add a few questions if anyone is willing to contribute to. I guess some questions might not be pertinent to the non-theistic schools of thought.

1. Do you follow the school of causation or occasionalism? Based on what arm of Hinduism?
2. Are you a pantheist? If so, who was the creator? Did this creator exist prior to creation which seems like a logical entailment to have existed prior to creation?
3. As an atheist how would you reconcile with the other schools of thought who have theistic beliefs? I am associating that question to others who use the same literature for their beliefs.

I hope these questions don't derail the main question of "why hinduism".

Thank you again.

 

[George-ananda]

"why hinduism".

I am unaffiliated American (raised Catholic) who has come to believe that the sages and saints of India have gone deeper into understanding the depth of reality than any other culture.

I am a follower of Advaita (non-dual=God/Brahman and creation are not-two).

From Wikipedia:

The term Advaita (literally "non-secondness", but usually rendered as "nondualism",[4][5] and often equated with monism[note 3]) refers to the idea that Brahman alone is ultimately real, while the transient phenomenal world is an illusory appearance (maya) of Brahman.

It takes some time and effort to really understand what this is saying.

 

[SomeRandom]

This thread is opened to understand Hinduism better. My knowledge of Hinduism is very limited, but what I do know is that Hinduism is probably the most generic name used for the largest library of philosophies in the world. I remember vividly a scholar of sociology of religion once stated in a Youtube video that "the Buddha was teaching hinduism to hindus" and all the Buddhists who watched it got pretty ticked off.

I know that Hindu's don't proselytise. But as a group or a whole population, in global statistics Hinduism has been, is and in my opinion "will be" the most stable through time to come. Their number don't change much. This indicates that though people rarely convert to Hinduism (as a general statement), they don't convert out of Hinduism to other theologies and there has to be a reason for that conviction. I would like to understand that better.

Hinduism contains atheistic philosophies as well. As I understand the Advaitha (not advanta vedantha) arm is atheistic but indepth understanding is needed.

Though you don't proselytise, would you be kind enough to share some thoughts on "why hinduism"? So of course this might entail the question "Why not other theologies but Hinduism". Thank you very much.

I am editing this to add a few questions if anyone is willing to contribute to. I guess some questions might not be pertinent to the non-theistic schools of thought.

1. Do you follow the school of causation or occasionalism? Based on what arm of Hinduism?
2. Are you a pantheist? If so, who was the creator? Did this creator exist prior to creation which seems like a logical entailment to have existed prior to creation?
3. As an atheist how would you reconcile with the other schools of thought who have theistic beliefs? I am associating that question to others who use the same literature for their beliefs.

I hope these questions don't derail the main question of "why hinduism".

Thank you again.

I mean I’m Hindu basically because that’s what I was raised as.
There is definitely an element of thinking of it as something of a cultural inheritance. But that may be due to the reaction against Colonisation, not entirely sure.

Regardless, I am a Kali devotee and a wannabe Tantric.
For me I like Hinduism because it offers clean good strong groundings for morality. But it has enough flexibility to understand the need for ethics and why those two concepts are to be treated differently. I like the freedom it affords me to explore my own philosophy and truth be told they have some great foods lol. And the festivals are aways such a joy to participate in

Now huge disclaimer, I am only putting forth my own understandings. People have differing ideas and philosophies, not everyone will have the same interpretation. Just know that I’m doing my best to essentially dumb down these things and I only speak for myself.

Being a pantheist, I don’t know if that really has much difference on thinking on a creator deity specifically in Hinduism. It might, I suppose.
But generally speaking “Brahman” is thought to be the cosmic universal energy principle thing that makes up the entire universe. Shakti is the same thing in the versions that use the concept, but it is understood to be specifically “feminine” in nature.
Whether or not one believes Brahman/Shakti refers to a divine energy/being or whether that’s merely the name for all the energies that compromise the universe (and indeed the matter making up the Atman or soul, in non dual schools) is really up to the individual. Some believe it’s both even.
That’s not to say Hinduism is without its own creation stories though.

The main “trinity” if you like in Hinduism is generally thought to be the “creator deity” Brahma, the preserver deity Vishnu and the “destroyer deity” Shiva. It’s sort of like a Yin and Yang kind of deal with each deity playing a specific and contrasting role but each is necessary to maintain order and balance. If that makes sense?
Like it’s understood that the universe needs to end some day and that’s not a bad thing in and of itself. It’s just something that has to happen. Maybe that will make way for a better one to sprout from its ashes. Who knows.

As for reconciling atheism with Hindu philosophy/belief. Best ask @Aupmanyav that one lol

 

[firedragon]

I am unaffiliated American (raised Catholic) who has come to believe that the sages and saints of India have gone deeper into understanding the depth of reality than any other culture.

I am a follower of Advaita (non-dual=God/Brahman and creation are not-two).

From Wikipedia:

The term Advaita (literally "non-secondness", but usually rendered as "nondualism",[4][5] and often equated with monism[note 3]) refers to the idea that Brahman alone is ultimately real, while the transient phenomenal world is an illusory appearance (maya) of Brahman.

It takes some time and effort to really understand what this is saying.

Thank you very much.

Unaffiliated. Meaning either agnostic or atheist. Advaitha. Great.

Why do you think this is the correct way?

 

[firedragon]

I mean I’m Hindu basically because that’s what I was raised as.
There is definitely an element of thinking of it as something of a cultural inheritance. But that may be due to the reaction against Colonisation, not entirely sure.

Regardless, I am a Kali devotee and a wannabe Tantric.
For me I like Hinduism because it offers clean good strong groundings for morality. But it has enough flexibility to understand the need for ethics and why those two concepts are to be treated differently. I like the freedom it affords me to explore my own philosophy and truth be told they have some great foods lol. And the festivals are aways such a joy to participate in

Now huge disclaimer, I am only putting forth my own understandings. People have differing ideas and philosophies, not everyone will have the same interpretation. Just know that I’m doing my best to essentially dumb down these things and I only speak for myself.

Being a pantheist, I don’t know if that really has much difference on thinking on a creator deity specifically in Hinduism. It might, I suppose.
But generally speaking “Brahman” is thought to be the cosmic universal energy principle thing that makes up the entire universe. Shakti is the same thing in the versions that use the concept, but it is understood to be specifically “feminine” in nature.
Whether or not one believes Brahman/Shakti refers to a divine energy/being or whether that’s merely the name for all the energies that compromise the universe (and indeed the matter making up the Atman or soul, in non dual schools) is really up to the individual. Some believe it’s both even.
That’s not to say Hinduism is without its own creation stories though.

The main “trinity” if you like in Hinduism is generally thought to be the “creator deity” Brahma, the preserver deity Vishnu and the “destroyer deity” Shiva. It’s sort of like a Yin and Yang kind of deal with each deity playing a specific and contrasting role but each is necessary to maintain order and balance. If that makes sense?
Like it’s understood that the universe needs to end some day and that’s not a bad thing in and of itself. It’s just something that has to happen. Maybe that will make way for a better one to sprout from its ashes. Who knows.

As for reconciling atheism with Hindu philosophy/belief. Best ask @Aupmanyav that one lol

I love Indian food. I don't have statistics, but my personal opinion is that Indian food as a category is the most famous in the world.

Why do you think that Hindu teachings of ethics or/and morality is higher than the other theologies?
And as I asked, if Brahma was the creator, was he there before the universe as a pantheist?

Very interesting post by the way. Thank you so much.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I love Indian food. I don't have statistics, but my personal opinion is that Indian food as a category is the most famous in the world.

Why do you think that Hindu teachings of ethics or/and morality is higher than the other theologies?
And as I asked, if Brahma was the creator, was he there before the universe as a pantheist?

Well, I have not been to South-East Asia, but by what I find on internet, your food is more interesting and varied than Indian food including fried cockroaches and live white worms. I am sure that they are tasty. Not to talk of Bat-saliva soups, which must really be 'divine'. (None of this intended as a pun)

Morality is not higher or lower, it may be different from one people to another. It depends on its society. Hinduism as a system is far more flexible than any other religion that I know of.

Well, if you ask Vaishnavas, a lotus arose out of Lord Vishnus navel and Brahma appeared on that lotus with the Vedas in his hands. Looked around himself to find where he was and that is how he got four (some will say five heads). Then he created the universe and the humans.

Shaivas will have no need for all this. For them, Shivas 'Tandava' dance and the sound of his rattle is enough to create or destroy the universe with all that it has.

 

[SomeRandom]

I love Indian food. I don't have statistics, but my personal opinion is that Indian food as a category is the most famous in the world.

Mate!!! It’s the best, right?!! Lol though I do love food from the Phillipines as well.

Why do you think that Hindu teachings of ethics or/and morality is higher than the other theologies?

Clarification on my part, I don’t think it’s higher necessarily. I think it offers more flexibility to allow for grey areas to be discussed openly. I’m not saying it’s unique in that regard. I think many religions offer that. If not all to a degree.
But for example take fundamentalist Christianity (merely because that’s what I’m most familiar with.) Many very complex matters are often discussed in matters of black and white morality. But
Like for example abortion, right? My Christian fundamentalist uncle has a hard time whenever I bring up scenarios in which one could argue that abortion may be the more ethical choice, regardless of whether or not you consider it immoral. Something that I find easier in comparison because of how my philosophy treats both ethics and morals.
However if I phrase my understanding to him in more black and white moralistic terms he seems to understand my position a bit better. We’ve even had compromises within our discussions. Crazy I know. But it’s been known to happen.
I’m not saying a Christianity doesn’t allow for complex ethical debates, obviously it does. I’m just saying some sects tend to be a bit more rigid in those regards. And that’s fine. I’m not making a value judgement, I’m merely stating that in my opinion and experience, Hinduism allows me more flexibility to examine morality issues from a more “grey” perspective. Something that doesn’t seem to happen for my Christian friends and family. Just an observation.

And as I asked, if Brahma was the creator, was he there before the universe as a pantheist?

Oh that’s a good question, I guess I’ve never really thought about it before. My family comes from a rather universalist sect (Sai Baba people) with some traditionalists in the mix. As I understand it, Brahma the creator deity is merely an aspect or manifestation of Brahman ultimately. Meaning He’s kind of both. He is Brahman in the sense that he is merely an aspect of the universe made manifest. So he existed after creation. But he is also part of the cosmic energy that makes up the universe, so he was the instigator so he would have existed before that in some capacity.

This is admittedly a bit out of my limits of understanding how The Big Bang theory works. But as I understand it, all the elements that make up the universe were there before the instigation of creation (aka the Big Bang.)
Same basic principle really. And for the record I happily accept the Big Bang Theory.

With all that said Brahma is also typically treated as his own distinct deity at the same time. Something that happens for pretty much all Hindu deities. All are aspects of “bigger gods” but they’re also treated as their own distinct beings at the same time. Without this being something that’s conflicting. This is why I can answer “both” and not have that be something that causes conflict within my understandings
Also the gods in general tend to be rather symbolic and therefor can be a bit flexible in the actual “mythology.”
But that’s just my understanding. I don’t know if I qualify as a pantheist though. I suppose when translated into the Abrahamic paradigm that’s the case.
Such labels are pretty Western in nature. You’ll find that in Dharmic thought (and maybe Eastern thought in general, idk) those labels tend to intersect and even overlap at times. Depending on who ask.

Very interesting post by the way. Thank you so much.

Ahh cheers

 

[firedragon]

Well, I have not been to South-East Asia, but by what I find on internet, your food is more interesting and varied than Indian food including fried cockroaches and live white worms. I am sure that they are tasty. Not to talk of Bat-saliva soups, which must really be 'divine'. (None of this intended as a pun)

Is this the guy you recommended @SomeRandom ?

 

[SomeRandom]

Is this the guy you recommended @SomeRandom ?

My deepest apologies. He’s just the only one who I know for sure is a devout atheist and Hindu at the same time

 

[firedragon]

Mate!!! It’s the best, right?!! Lol though I do love food from the Phillipines as well.

I have not eaten philippino food yet. Must try. Foodwise, I know a Pakistani family where once in a while I will join for dinner. These people know how to feed others. My God. Their dinner table is full of varieties, and this is how they normally eat. I have never seen anything like that. Somehow, the food is quite similar to Indian food. Just that I found them eating like 10 different items in one sitting.

Clarification on my part, I don’t think it’s higher necessarily. I think it offers more flexibility to allow for grey areas to be discussed openly. I’m not saying it’s unique in that regard. I think many religions offer that. If not all to a degree.
But for example take fundamentalist Christianity (merely because that’s what I’m most familiar with.) Many very complex matters are often discussed in matters of black and white morality. But
Like for example abortion, right? My Christian fundamentalist uncle has a hard time whenever I bring up scenarios in which one could argue that abortion may be the more ethical choice, regardless of whether or not you consider it immoral. Something that I find easier in comparison because of how my philosophy treats both ethics and morals.
However if I phrase my understanding to him in more black and white moralistic terms he seems to understand my position a bit better. We’ve even had compromises within our discussions. Crazy I know. But it’s been known to happen.
I’m not saying a Christianity doesn’t allow for complex ethical debates, obviously it does. I’m just saying some sects tend to be a bit more rigid in those regards. And that’s fine. I’m not making a value judgement, I’m merely stating that in my opinion and experience, Hinduism allows me more flexibility to examine morality issues from a more “grey” perspective. Something that doesn’t seem to happen for my Christian friends and family. Just an observation.

Oh I see. Now I understand better.

Oh that’s a good question, I guess I’ve never really thought about it before. My family comes from a rather universalist sect (Sai Baba people) with some traditionalists in the mix. As I understand it, Brahma the creator deity is merely an aspect or manifestation of Brahman ultimately. Meaning He’s kind of both. He is Brahman in the sense that he is merely an aspect of the universe made manifest. So he existed after creation. But he is also part of the cosmic energy that makes up the universe, so he was the instigator so he would have existed before that in some capacity. That’s a bit out of my limits of understanding how The Big Bang theory works. But as I understand it, all the elements that make up the universe were there before the instigation of creation (aka the Big Bang.)
Iow he existed before and after creation.
With all that said Brahma is also typically treated as his own distinct deity at the same time. Something that happens for pretty much all Hindu deities. All are aspects of “bigger gods” but they’re also treated as their own distinct beings at the same time. Without this being something that’s conflicting
Also the gods in general tend to be rather symbolic and therefor can be a bit flexible in the actual “mythology.”
But that’s just my understanding. I don’t know if I qualify as a pantheist though. I suppose when translated into the Abrahamic paradigm that’s the case.
Such labels are pretty Western in nature. You’ll find that in Dharmic thought (and maybe Eastern thought in general, idk) those labels tend to intersect and even overlap at times. Depending on who ask.

Thanks for a very clear and concise post. Interesting perspective. We learn everyday.

I must say that none of this is a "western perspective". None. They are all eastern perspectives. I have noticed that when ever I open a thread on Buddhism or Hinduism I hear this "western perspective" thing. The west have adopted certain religions but all of them came from the middle east or the east. Pantheism is an eastern concept. It is Hindu and a small group of Muslims propagated it. In Arabic it was called "Wahdathul Wujood".

Nevertheless, thank you so much for your post Some Random. I really appreciate it.

Ahh cheers

Cheers cheers. A cup of coffee on me. (Without cream. I hate cream.)

 

[firedragon]

My deepest apologies. He’s just the only one who I know for sure is a devout atheist and Hindu at the same time

Seems to have assumed I eat cockroaches, bat saliva and that I am from "east Asia" for some reason. I didn't know that the so called "east asian people" eat cockroaches and bat saliva. I have seen crickets fried and sold in Thailand.

Nevertheless, I think @SalixIncendium is Advaitha. Cant remember now.

Sometimes it's a quick learning to open a thread on a particular topic. Especially something as vast as Hinduism. If you order one book, and it comes to you, you start reading, and you realise this is only one out of a 100 schools of thought.

Hinduism is one of the most interesting libraries of diversity in the whole world. Probably highly misunderstood by those who have not done any listening but just focus on some peripheral nonsense to insult people. I have not read up on the great works of philosophy in Hindu tradition. Very little. So this is how I start. Get views from people like you first, book mark those views, get some books on them and start reading.

So thank you very much for helping. And if you want some butter chicken I cant help you because I would have eaten them all.

 

[SomeRandom]

I have not eaten philippino food yet. Must try. Foodwise, I know a Pakistani family where once in a while I will join for dinner. These people know how to feed others. My God. Their dinner table is full of varieties, and this is how they normally eat. I have never seen anything like that. Somehow, the food is quite similar to Indian food. Just that I found them eating like 10 different items in one sitting.

My friend is half Phillipino. Their curry puffs are so yummy lol. They’re like Samosas but quite sweet inside.
Oh and Pakistani food is quite something else, isn’t it? There’s an Indian restaurant near me that I think mostly does Pakistani cuisine. So yum!!

Oh I see. Now I understand better.



Thanks for a very clear and concise post. Interesting perspective. We learn everyday.

No worries. Happy to help.
It’s fun to learn new things

I must say that none of this is a "western perspective". None. They are all eastern perspectives. I have noticed that when ever I open a thread on Buddhism or Hinduism I hear this "western perspective" thing. The west have adopted certain religions but all of them came from the middle east or the east. Pantheism is an eastern concept. It is Hindu and a small group of Muslims propagated it. In Arabic it was called "Wahdathul Wujood".

Interesting.
I learned something new today lol

I was more referring to the very rigid lines drawn in the sand between like pantheism, monotheism and polytheism. Those don’t always translate very well in many eastern traditions. That’s all I meant, really

Nevertheless, thank you so much for your post Some Random. I really appreciate it.


Cheers cheers. A cup of coffee on me. (Without cream. I hate cream.)

Anytime mate
Cheers

 

[SomeRandom]

Seems to have assumed I eat cockroaches, bat saliva and that I am from "east Asia" for some reason. I didn't know that the so called "east asian people" eat cockroaches and bat saliva. I have seen crickets fried and sold in Thailand.

Again I can only offer my sincerest apologies.

Nevertheless, I think @SalixIncendium is Advaitha. Cant remember now.

Huh maybe

Sometimes it's a quick learning to open a thread on a particular topic. Especially something as vast as Hinduism. If you order one book, and it comes to you, you start reading, and you realise this is only one out of a 100 schools of thought.

Ain’t that the truth. Hinduism is very vast and seemingly complex. I can understand wanting some input from those actually practicing.
It’s easy to drown in info otherwise lol

Hinduism is one of the most interesting libraries of diversity in the whole world. Probably highly misunderstood by those who have not done any listening but just focus on some peripheral nonsense to insult people. I have not read up on the great works of philosophy in Hindu tradition. Very little. So this is how I start. Get views from people like you first, book mark those views, get some books on them and start reading.

Happy reading!!
Hindus don’t tend to place a lot of emphasis on the literature. So I kind of learned what I learned from other Hindu folks in my community. I read various books of course. But more like how I would read a random classic. Just something I find rather fun to do.

So thank you very much for helping. And if you want some butter chicken I cant help you because I would have eaten them all.

Happy to help. And I’ll forgive you for eating my butter chicken. Only because my mum can make me some

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am not assuming anything. I mentioned what I see and understand from videos. Yes, on checking I find that I am wrong, it is not Bat Saliva but Bird Saliva or nest, caviar of the east. Crickets may be what I have seen in videos and I did not realize that they were not cockroaches. Internet helps us to learn.

"The most prized are “red nests” from the red-nest swiftlet, which can cost as much as $10,000 per kilogram. However, the most common are white and black-nest swiftlet nests, which run between $5,000 and $6,000 per kilogram."
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ut-its-damn-expensive/photostory/77782419.cms

We all concentrate on philosophies that rhyme with us. My views do not rhyme with Hare-Krishna or Arya Samaj, so I give them a pass. Beliefs other than one's own always seem nonsense to many people.

Well, butter chicken is not my thing, too much cream, corn flour to thicken the gravy and sweet because of all the tomatoes used. I prefer roast or fry, and salty, hot.

 

[Aupmanyav]

3. As an atheist how would you reconcile with the other schools of thought who have theistic beliefs? I am associating that question to others who use the same literature for their beliefs.

There is no need to reconcile or compromise, neither for the theists nor for the atheist. It is peaceful co-existence in Hinduism as in my family where everyone else is a polytheist. "To you your belief, to me mine". That sure is a beautiful line from al-Quran al-Karim. They will concentrate of different books, though they may read the books of other sects for information. However, 'dharma', how one should act in life, is the same for all Hindus.

 

[mangalavara]

I am unaffiliated American (raised Catholic) who has come to believe that the sages and saints of India have gone deeper into understanding the depth of reality than any other culture.

I agree. If I were asked 'Why Hinduism' in a conversation, one aspect of my reply might be that our Ṛṣis and saints attained the profoundest understanding of consciousness and reality. Further, it is an understanding that any individual can attain as well.

Hinduism allows me more flexibility to examine morality issues from a more “grey” perspective.

This is another thing that I like about Hinduism. If a person were to ask me 'Why Hinduism' rather than another religion, I would likely mention this same flexibility.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Well, I have not been to South-East Asia, but by what I find on internet, your food is more interesting and varied than Indian food including fried cockroaches and live white worms. I am sure that they are tasty. Not to talk of Bat-saliva soups, which must really be 'divine'. (None of this intended as a pun)

Why do you assume @firedragon is from the region these foods are consumed?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Nevertheless, I think @SalixIncendium is Advaitha. Cant remember now.

You recall correctly.

Unaffiliated. Meaning either agnostic or atheist. Advaitha. Great.

The majority of Advaitins are theist. @Aupmanyav, who is an atheist, and I, who am a transtheist, are more the exception than the rule. Adi Shankaracharya, who is one of the best known Vedic scholars and teachers in Advaita, was a theist.

That said, Advaita Vedanta does not require gods in order for one to subscribe to it's philosophies. It's foundation is realization of the Self as Brahman. No gods required.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I have not been to South-East Asia, but by what I find on internet, your food is more interesting and varied than Indian food including fried cockroaches and live white worms. I am sure that they are tasty. Not to talk of Bat-saliva soups, which must really be 'divine'. (None of this intended as a pun)

Why do you assume @firedragon is from the region these foods are consumed?

By his posts and some spellings, I assume that @firedragon is from South East Asia. And the food there differs from North Indian food. I was informed by @firedragon that what is available in Thailand are not cockroaches but crickets. I thank him for the information. I also searched internet about Bat-Saliva, and I came to know that it is not Bat-Saliva but a nest built by a species of birds with their saliva (Swiftlets). I did not say that @firedragon eats this or that. There is nothing wrong in eating something which is not harmful, is nourishing and tasty. FYI, I resent ban on beef in India in some regions including Delhi. We neither get good pork meat nor beef. We are limited to goat meat (sheep meat too is avoided in our family because of smell) or the God-forsaken chicken. Is not that pitiable?

Swiftlet - Wikipedia (Culinary use)

Black Swiftlet

 

[SalixIncendium]

Back to the OP:

I identify with Hinduism because it's the only religion I'm aware of that aligns perfectly with my worldview.

1. Do you follow the school of causation or occasionalism? Based on what arm of Hinduism?

I'm not sure exactly what a school of causation or occasionalism is. In my school of philosophy, Advaita Vedanta, causation is a part of Maya.

2. Are you a pantheist? If so, who was the creator? Did this creator exist prior to creation which seems like a logical entailment to have existed prior to creation?

I am not a pantheist. I am a transtheist. Maya (time/space/causation) appears as a creation in Brahman. However, this is avidya (false knowledge). Only Brahman exists.

3. As an atheist how would you reconcile with the other schools of thought who have theistic beliefs? I am associating that question to others who use the same literature for their beliefs.

I'm not an atheist, but one of the beauties of Hinduism is you don't have to reconcile beliefs with another philosophy. Indians have been debating philosophies for centuries, and the only thing they agree upon is that their philosophies can't be reconciled with one another.