Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

The distinction is irrelevant. This has been explained multiple times, in the simplest of terms.
"I'm not racist. I don't hate black people, I just think black skin is a sign of inferiority and criminality".
Get it?

The analogy does not apply. I do not hate homosexuals and I do not think homosexual behavior is a sign of inferiority or criminality.

You still haven't been able to explain why homosexuality is a "sin" in the first place.

I have explained it. It is a sin because God has deems it a sin.....
What, you don't read your Bible? Adultery and fornication are also sins.

 

[ppp]

If I was treating t as a fact I would say I think this is a fact, but that is not what I say; I say it is just my opinion or my belief. Just because 'I believe' x or y is true that does not mean I am stating it as a fact.

I asked about your actions. Not your words.

 

[Trailblazer]

What difference does that make. Are Bahai homosexuals somehow excluded from the tolerance and respect that non-Bahais are entitled to?
Is it ok for the the manager of a football team to be racist towards his own players, as long as he isn't towards anyone else?

Baha'is are "under the Law" so Baha'i homosexuals are treated differently than non-Baha'i homosexuals who are not subject to Baha'i Laws.

However, Baha'i homosexuals are not excluded from the tolerance and respect.

 

[Trailblazer]

What? So now you are claiming that Bahaism has no rules or laws that Bahais are supposed to adhere to?

I never said we are not supposed to adhere to the rules and Laws, I only ever said we are imperfect so sometimes we slip up.

Haven't seen that post yet. But fyi, owning a website doesn't necessarily make your statements profound.

Did I claim it did?
I also own a forum but I don't consider my statements profound.

Did you read his essay? He seems to believe that sex for any reason other than procreation is somehow distasteful.

I would not use the word distasteful. He was saying sex can be part of a loving relationship but sex is not necessary, except for procreation. I agree. Food and water are necessary to live, sex is not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Read the thread...there's one comparison quoted in the post you've just responded to.

You made that comparison, nobody else made it.

loverofhumanity said: The Baha’i Faith condemns all forms of immorality not just homosexuality but adultery, pedophilia and others.

Sheldon said: It takes a belief devoid of any concept of morality, or any semblance of reason, to compare being gay to raping children.
#871 Sheldon, Yesterday at 7:51 AM

 

[Trailblazer]

That's because the former exists as an objective fact, whereas the latter is woo woo superstition. Being gay, or having sex solely for the physical pleasure is not harmful in any practical way. Denying or suppressing harmless sexual desires is harmful in and of itself.

No, not in any practical way.

At least two adherents of your faith can see nothing wrong in the facile comparison that raping children and homosexuality are both bad.

Saying that we consider them 'both bad' is not a comparison since nobody compared one to the other and said which is better or worse.

 

[Trailblazer]

So putting your penis where it isn't designed to go isn't a problem then.

I have a problem with it but unless the UHJ changes their ruling it is not prohibited by Baha'i Law.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you accept that it isn't something "against nature".

Not in those species.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is some pretty pointless rigamarole. 5 steps where one will do.

Yes, Baha'is are saying to listen to what their prophet has said about what an invisible, unknowable God told him... And one interpretation that a Baha'i gives is that this all-knowing, wise God thought it would be a smart thing to do to make different things feel good sexually so people would do them. But then, to prove they trust and love him, God is telling them not to do those things?

 

[dybmh]

Denying or suppressing harmless sexual desires is harmful in and of itself.

No, not in any practical way.

Celibacy in men can result in increased risk of prostate cancer.

Frequent ejaculation may be linked to decreased risk of prostate cancer

 

[Trailblazer]

If helping others god feels good, are you supposed to give that up as well? What about playing music or loving your spouse, or eating and drinking nice things?

That is the fallacy of false equivalence because all things that 'feel good' are not equivalent.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Sex feels good. So Bahais should give up sex, yes?

The Baha'i Faith does not suggest that Baha'is should give up sex.

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.'

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

Furthermore, Baha'u'llah wrote that we should partake of the 'good things' that God has allowed us and be thankful for them. That includes sex.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked about your actions. Not your words.

How would your actions be different if you were treating it as a fact? And, if so, how?

On this forum my actions can only be demonstrated by what I write, my words.

 

[Trailblazer]

And one interpretation that a Baha'i gives is that this all-knowing, wise God thought it would be a smart thing to do to make different things feel good sexually so people would do them. But then, to prove they trust and love him, God is telling them not to do those things?

God is not telling us not to do these things. God is telling us to do them, but only in the proper context, which is marriage between a man and a woman.

Sex is one of God's wondrous bounties.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not expect many in this age will understand these laws CG. We are too close to the promiscuity of a self indulgent age.

My grandmother and mother would embrace those laws as that is what Christianity and Islam also teach.

So that is your choice as to how you see it. The Bible warns of such an age

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

2 Timothy 3:1-5

Regards Tony

I'm asking for clarification...

Here's is what Baha'is believe to be the word of God from Baha'u'llah. Explain it.
"Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue."

Is sex with a person from the same gender included in this? If so, it is forbidden, and God wants you to "purge" the world of the defilement of evil passions. Is homosexuality one of those "evil defilements" that God wants to be purged? And anyone that commits "satanic deeds" is not of me? Is homosexuality one of those "satanic deeds"?

This is the statement from Baha'u'llah where it says to "purge" the world of defilement of evil passions. He mentions adultery, sodomy and lechery. Is homosexuality to be included in that? And is to be "purged" from the world? If not, then it's okay to let homosexuality continue on and not get "purged"? Then...

To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."

The official Baha'i stance is that homosexuality is against nature, it is an "affliction", but this handicap can be overcome with prayer and the help of doctors. Is that correct? No matter what some scientific study may say that would contradict that. If some scientists would say such a thing, they are wrong. And in this case science and religion don't agree. It is science that is wrong and what the Baha'i Faith says is what is true. Is that right?

 

[CG Didymus]

My grandmother and mother would embrace those laws as that is what Christianity and Islam also teach.

They would? Is this what Islam believes? And your Mom and Grandmother agree with this?

The four Sunni schools of jurisprudence all agree that practicing homosexuality is an egregious crime that earns an especially harsh punishment, although the schools vary regarding what exactly this punishment should be. In the Hanafi school, the practicing homosexual is to be beat harshly and then executed if they persist. In the Shafi'i school, the practicing homosexual is punished in the same manner as one who engages in illegal intercourse (zina) - that is, they are lashed 100 times if unmarried and stoned to death if married. Some scholars, referencing the practices of the four Rightly-Guided (Rashidun) Caliphs, hold that the practicing homosexual should be thrown off of a tall building.[1] Others, referencing the Quran, maintain that the homosexual should be imprisoned until they die. Still others, also referencing the Quran, maintain that practicing homosexuals should in all cases be stoned to death.[2] Yet another view is that while the passive party in the male homosexual act should be killed in all cases, the active party escapes execution if unmarried and is to be lashed 100 times.[3] Some scholars also suggest that homosexual, when executed, should be beheaded rather than stoned.
​

In the law of Moses, it says to stone them. At some point in time, that stopped being enforced. Did any Christian Church ever carry out a death penalty on homosexuals? And what is the prescribed penalty in the New Testament for homosexuality? If it's not death, then God went from stoning them, to not stoning them, to Islam, where they can be put to death again? So again, what is it that your Mom and Grandmother would embrace?

 

[CG Didymus]

I found this:

"Bahá’u’lláh taught, that Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist"

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 27-30

So, if the Baha'i teaching about homosexuality is the cause of disharmony then it would be better that it should not exist, per Baha'u'llah?

The way it seems... There will be peace and harmony if all people the world over recognize Baha'u'llah as their "Promised One" and follow his teachings. Thus, no divisions. Those that are homosexuals should also recognize this and believe his words are from God and change their behavior. And they too, will have nothing against Baha'u'llah and his teachings. All Baha'is will be one happy family.... in theory.

But for all the other religions, it is true. All their doctrines and dogmas that cause division are bad and should be done away with.

 

[KWED]

All that is true, but so what?

Well, firstly you keep denying it after admitting it. No doubt you will be denying it again on the next page.

I have presented my position and you have presented yours many times over. I have a religious belief and you have a contrary personal opinion, and never the twain shall meet.

But you are missing the point. Your religious belief contains nasty, antisocial, even damaging elements. You seem to think that's ok. I don't.

Calling Baha'is homophobes is just as judgmental as judging homosexual behavior.

I only accuse those of homophobia who attempt to defend and justify the homophobic passages.

I guess it doesn't matter who you hurt, as long as you disagree with them.

You just told me that words can never hurt you.
Flip.
Flop.

 

[KWED]

Calling Baha'is homophobes is just as judgmental as judging homosexual behavior.

So you think that challenging racism is as bad as being racist?

(And yes, I fully expect that you will utterly fail to understand the analogy and reply that you aren't racist )

 

[ppp]

On this forum my actions can only be demonstrated by what I write, my words.

I didn't ask about just on this forum. How would your actions be different if you were treating it as a fact? And, if so, how?

 

[KWED]

That's right, calling people homophobes can hurt people.

Who gives a **** if homophobes are upset at being called out? Same with racists, sexists, etc. We owe them no favours.

In the words of the great Homer (to Marge)...
"If you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, I guess I'm going to have to stop doing stupid things"
A fine lesson there.

 

[CG Didymus]

God set up the theocracy on earth, Israel, and gave laws for that theocracy to follow and made temporal punishments for disobedience. This whole thing had it's reason and was to lead the Jews to the time of the Messiah when the Kingdom of God would not be an earthly Kingdom (as it was with Israel) and the judgement is not here on earth.
Christians have faith, and that is not just a head belief but includes obeying what God wants us to. We know when we are obeying or not and so does God and God is teaching us and changing us on the journey to be more like Jesus in character and so to do the right thing even when it seems nobody can see.
We life by faith.

You're coming from a very different place than Baha'is. For you, it's just the Bible and the NT. My arguments to you would be very different than to the Baha'is.

With Baha'is I can bring in science, since they supposedly support scientific evidence. Their view might not be based on science at all but merely what their prophet said.

But religions have to draw the line somewhere on what is good and pure and Godly behavior, and what is evil and wrong and destructive to society. And is homosexuality one of the evil things? For sure in Christianity, and it seems like it is for sure in the Baha'i Faith too. Now... what are they going to do with them?