Homosexuality and religious.

[Goldemar]

God is not responsible for how people feel. God only sets forth Laws for people to obey and those Laws are for their own benefit, so that is for their well-being and that is Loving.

In what way(s) are the relevant laws for people's benefit? I identify as queer and polysexual. If I was a Baha'i, how would I benefit from the Baha'i laws on homosexuality?

 

[Goldemar]

So, God tells some people it is okay and others to kill gays and with the Baha'i Faith that it is not natural, and they should seek help. The more I think about it, though, I think the real issue here is that some of us have been arguing/debating with Baha'is for months and even years. We can't prove there isn't a God, and they can't prove there is a God. But we can show that what their leader said is not supported by science. And that's important because Baha'is supposedly believe science and religion should agree... otherwise religion can become filled with superstitious beliefs. And the other important thing here is.... If he's really from God, then we're supposed to believe this stuff and follow it.

So, does science agree with the Baha'i Faith? That being gay is a mental problem and they should seek help to overcome their problem. If not... Did the Baha'i prophet really get this from God, or did it come from his own head and is nothing but a superstitious, anti-science, religious belief? And if this quote is part of the teachings against homosexuality, then is does say "purge". Truly from God or just religious extremism?

The God that I refer to as God is not the creator of the material world in my belief system. I believe it was the creator of the material world, who is referred to as God by your average Jew, Christian, Moslem, and Baha'i (to reference four Abrahamic religions), who introduced these harmful, hateful laws against homosexuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

I told you that as a Bahai you have to follow whatever Bahaullah said, without question, even if it makes no sense.
You denied that.
Now you admit it.
Flip.
Flop.

No, I do not have to, I choose to.
That is what I have said all along so there is no flip-flop.

 

[Vinayaka]

Could you explain more?

It's my coined word for the Bahai echo chamber. Once upon a time, I had the stupidity to engage with adherents of the Baha'i faith for a longer period of time, like almost 2 years I think. It was like talking to one person with 5 different names, and after getting used to the commonalities in the language, answers, and all that, I coined a new word for it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So let's get this straight, you don't have any negative attitudes towards homosexuality - but you agree that homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration, an immoral evil that is against nature that should be purged from the world.

That is not what I said.
Trailblazer said: ↑
I do not have a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.
I agree with the Baha'i Laws regarding homosexuality, that is all.

The fact that I agree with the Baha'i Laws does not mean that I have negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

You denied that there is any homophobia in Bahai teachings.
You weren't aware of the passages in question.

I was fully aware of the passages in question, but as I have said from the very beginning, those are not homophobia.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

 

[Trailblazer]

So you accept that there is homophobia in Bahai teachings.
Finally!
Why does it always take so long for you to accept the obvious?

No, I do not accept that. The passages do not indicate dislike of or prejudice against gay people, only disapproval of gay sexual behavior.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

 

[Trailblazer]

A religious person should always look at oneself before criticize others.

That is correct,

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

and it might be nice if some nonreligious people followed suit.

 

[Trailblazer]

All you have done is show Bahaullah completely contradicting himself (which is often what happens when people make stuff up as they go along).

You just made this statement...

we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.
This a clear instruction to obey what God has revealed through the Messenger, even if what was revealed makes no sense to us.

It's Theological Whack-a-Mole™

There is no contradiction whatsoever.

The quote about not accepting His statements and His tokens blindly (see below) refers to what we are supposed to do while we are investigating His claims in order to determine if they are the Truth, what we are supposed to do BEFORE we become a Baha'i. It does not refer to what we are supposed to do AFTER we become a Baha'i. After we become a Baha'i we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

 

[Trailblazer]

What's "not right" about it? (as long as it's adult and consensual)

It is against the Law of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

In what way(s) are the relevant laws for people's benefit? I identify as queer and polysexual. If I was a Baha'i, how would I benefit from the Baha'i laws on homosexuality?

I can only answer that from a Baha'i perspective. I believe you would benefit because you would be adhering to the Law of God, which would be in your best interest.

Aside from that, Baha'i Laws are for the benefit of society collectively and they stress the importance of marriage and family. Individuals are part of society since they make up society.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

 

[Goldemar]

I can only answer that from a Baha'i perspective. I believe you would benefit because you would be adhering to the Law of God, which would be in your best interest.

Aside from that, Baha'i Laws are for the benefit of society collectively and they stress the importance of marriage and family. Individuals are part of society since they make up society.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

That doesn't really answer my question - how exactly do people benefit? Why is adhering to the Law of God in someone's best interest exactly?

 

[Trailblazer]

People are asking you to examine why you feel that way. You say that some of these attitudes predate your entry into religion, which, if I understood you correctly, means that you don't think those sentiments come from religion. Not directly if you weren't being taught, "God teaches us such-and-such," but somebody put that notion in your head - parent, aunt, teacher - who served as a vector for a judgment that had to begin with somebody deeming something immoral and saying that a god told them that.

I cannot say why I feel this way about sex out of wedlock. I was not raised as a Christian and I do not remember anyone ever talking about sex when I was growing up, at home or in school.

It's easy to see where these ideas came from and why, and they no longer make sense or serve any purpose. And who will be the vector for them into the future? People repeating ancient moral codes without knowing why.

I believe these ideas about sex originate from the Bible, and they have been carried forth in Islam and the Baha'i Faith. If you are nonreligious they might not make sense or serve a purpose for you, but for those who believe in the scriptures they are the Laws of God. We believe that God knows what is best for humans since God created us, thus the Laws are for our own benefit.

This is what all of the Baha'i posting here are saying, but it doesn't ring true to others. When you say that you go by the Baha'i teachings, you are endorsing them as good and moral.

No, I am not endorsing the Baha'i teachings for anyone else. I am only saying I believe they are good and moral, and I explain why I believe that.

Earlier, you wrote to a Christian who was tolerant of fornication, "So you are not opposed to sex out of wedlock? How can you justify that position given what the Bible says?" I guess that you don't see that that is passing moral judgment.

No, I was just wondering why a Christian would not be following what the Bible says. I am not judging anyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't really answer my question - how exactly do people benefit? Why is adhering to the Law of God in someone's best interest exactly?

Simply put, I believe that God knows what is best for humans since God created humans.
We benefit because we are doing what is in our best interest.

 

[dybmh]

No, I do not accept that. The passages do not indicate dislike of or prejudice against gay people, only disapproval of gay sexual behavior.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

But to be fair, it is homophobia per Wikipedia.

 

[Goldemar]

Simply put, I believe that God knows what is best for humans since God created humans.
We benefit because we are doing what is in our best interest.

Ah, the 'God knows best' argument. I don't think that's a very strong argument, but you are entitled to your belief.

 

[KWED]

I can understand your confusion.

 

[KWED]

a marriage certificate indicates commitment.

Utter nonsense.
People get married so they can get visas, work permits, etc, and they have no intention of having a committed relationship with the person they marry.
You have been sadly misinformed.

In our country, people don't have a certificate

What country is that, where married people don't get a marriage certificate?

so it is easier to end the commitment if the relationship doesn't work out. A divorce can be messy.

"Ending commitment" does not depend on anything other that a person's willingness to end that commitment.

 

[KWED]

A legally binding contract can make justice easier to obtain no doubt when a divorce does happen.

But "marriage" is not required for a legally binding contract between two people.

 

[ppp]

They are not objective, so evidence doesn't apply.
I also use those as you do, but we may have different understandings of what they actually are and how they work.

Yep. If we cannot agree on what morality is, then we certainly cannot have a discussion on common ground.