Homosexuality and religious.

[PruePhillip]

In civilized societies, law comes first.
Law does not make prophecies. Law is the present.
The future depends on what representatives of people vote for.

So if the law states that pornography is illegal - is there any chance the law might be forced to change?

 

[KWED]

No, there are no such scriptures in the Baha'i Faith.
There is only your distorted interpretation of Baha'i scriptures.

"Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions [inc. homosexuality]"
"Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration"
"Bahá'u'lláh...looks upon homosexual relationships...as immoral and against nature."
"one of the believers who seems to be flagrantly homosexual...should have his voting rights taken away"
"Homosexuality is highly condemned... Any individual so afflicted must seek to overcome this handicap."

Any political party publishing these views would be universally condemned and possibly prosecuted for hate speech.

 

[KWED]

Religions do not teach evil.

Humans do evil deeds out of ego

You don't think burning someone alive is "evil"?
Yikes! That's a pretty high bar you have.
What kind of sadistic violence you you consider to be "evil" then?

Or are you using a kind of Nuremberg Defence here. It can't be evil if god commands it, regardless of what the action is.

 

[ppp]

You must have a horrible time here on RF when all the religions people discussion faith and belief.

That sound more like a desire on your part, than a rational conclusion from the available data. But even if my time were truly "horrible" as you assert, it would still be a fact that religions teach things that are moral, immoral and amoral. That are correct and incorrect. The most evil and incorrect of the things that any religion teaches is that none of its teaching can be evil or incorrect.

 

[KWED]

No, by definition you are not homophobic.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

That is an incomplete and restrictive definition.
Here's another - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people. (MW)
Or from the first article of your search...
"Homophobia can take many different forms, including negative attitudes and beliefs about, aversion to, or prejudice against bisexual, lesbian, and gay people."

However, I can understand why you would want to try and exclude Bahaism's homophobia from any definition. Unfortunately, calling homosexuality "A shameful sexual aberration" is homophobia. If you doubt me, write it on a placard and stand in a busy pedestrian area and count how many times you are called homophobe/homophobic, etc.
Seriously, I want you to conduct that experiment as you seem convinced that no one would find it offensive or prejudiced.
Will you do it?
What's that?
You won't?
Why ever not?

 

[King Phenomenon]

You can't say homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration but also claim you are not judging homosexuals.

Also interesting that despite my criticism being of Bahai belief, I am constantly accused of attacking Bahais.
You can't have it both ways.

judging a situation and judging a person are seperate. ie. homosexuality and someone whos gay.

 

[KWED]

Can you please provide the exact source of this quote so I can read it myself and the surrounding text?

I am having trouble finding the source of the verbatim quote (it'll be in my history somewhere, but there's a lot in there!) , but this page has all the elements it contains, plus others like calling it "an affliction", "against nature", etc. The quote sounds like a paraphrase of a few different writings.
Homosexuality

 

[Sheldon]

Homosexuality it part of who some people are, and harms nobody.

Homophobic bigotry is a choice people make, and is deeply pernicious.

I have no comment on the former, and condemn the latter.

 

[KWED]

Baháʼí teachings state that Baháʼís should not treat homosexual people as condemned outcasts, nor expect people who are not Baháʼí to follow Baháʼí laws. The Baháʼí writings teach adherents to treat everyone with respect and dignity, and to eschew an attitude of discrimination and social intolerance toward homosexuals.

Baháʼí views on homosexuality - Wikipedia

Well, the UHJ seems to be softening the initial line taken by Bahaullah, Shoghi Effendi, etc, as shown in their own words...
Homosexuality
It's good to see that modern Bahaism has the ability to distance itself from the less acceptable writings of its early leaders.

 

[Sheldon]

judging a situation and judging a person are seperate. ie. homosexuality and someone whos gay.

Nonsense, being gay is not a choice or an act, it is part of who a person is. You cannot condemn being gay without condemning the person who is gay.

That's like saying you're not prejudice against people, only skin colour, it simply won't fly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So if the law states that pornography is illegal - is there any chance the law might be forced to change?

Yes, law can make what is legal today as illegal or vice-versa, though not very easily. There are procedures to be followed to change the law. Amendments are always there, in USA or in India. There have been some 110 amendments to Indian Constitution in 75 years of our independence.

 

[KWED]

judging a situation and judging a person are seperate. ie. homosexuality and someone whos gay.

"Homosexuality" is an innate and vital part of a "homosexual" that cannot be separated from their person.
You may as well claim that saying "black skin is disgusting" is not racist against a black person.

Hope this helped.

 

[KWED]

- There is no punishment unless that Baha'i is blatantly homosexual in public. What they do in their own homes is their own business. What can happen if they are flagrant is that the Baha'i could lose voting rights, but that is all.

What is being "flagrantly homosexual"?
And why should a person be disenfranchised for it?
Can people lose their right to vote for being "flagrantly heterosexual"?

- There is discouragement but the only punishment is noted above. The fact that there are no other punishment does not mean it is ok for a Baha'i to engage in homosexual acts. It is not ok because it is against Baha'i Laws.

Why is homosexuality against Bahai laws?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's good to see that modern Bahaism has the ability to distance itself from the less acceptable writings of its early leaders.

But that is absolutely wrong. That is veering from the words of Allah as brought to us by his manifestation. Bahaollah clearly said that there cannot be any change whatsoever in what he has said. This is corruption of Allah's word. "O servant of Allah, retribution of Allah is terrible. Fear Allah."

Why is homosexuality against Bahai laws?

Because Allah decreed so. Now go and ask Allah. What can Bahais do? Bahaollah did not reveal all that he knew.

 

[dybmh]

I just used the words taken from official Bahai sources, words written by Bahai representatives like Bahaullah, Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.
They said those things, so they are a part of Bahaism.

this is under dispute, the original sources need to be cited in order to verify what you're saying is accurate.

 

[KWED]

You are free to say what you think is right for you, I am equally in my right to be your opposition when it comes to speaking about my personal belief.

So it's ok for me to attack you personally, simply because you are not agreeing with me?
After all, that is what you keep doing.

 

[dybmh]

"Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions [inc. homosexuality]"
"Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration"
"Bahá'u'lláh...looks upon homosexual relationships...as immoral and against nature."
"one of the believers who seems to be flagrantly homosexual...should have his voting rights taken away"
"Homosexuality is highly condemned... Any individual so afflicted must seek to overcome this handicap."

thank you, would you please provide links so i can read these in context?

 

[Brian2]

Yes. How is that different from the quote you are replying to????

So indeed, if you reasoning tells you it is not immoral and your god beliefs says it is immoral, while you have no clue WHY it supposedly is immoral, you'll just stay in line of your religion and label it immoral - even though you have no clue why and your own reasoning tells you that it isn't immoral.

If that isn't sacrificing your moral compass in favor of obedience to a perceived authority, then I don't know what is.

Handing my life and understanding over to God, the Lord, is not a bad thing imo.
It's acknowledgement that us humans are not the be all and end all of deciding what is right and wrong.

View attachment 66843

Setting up a "morally pure" society by killing homosexuals, disobedient children and engaging in legalized slavery.
Fantastic.

That kind of sounds like "We bring you peace and freedom!" while the tanks are rolling in with a declaration of war.

Sounds like Putin who is currently trying to "liberate" Ukraine.

So disturbing.

Legalised slavery was part of the social security and economy of the day. A bit like borrowing money and working to pay back the loan is part of it these days. Slavery helped many to avoid starvation I'm sure, and when combined with other laws, the law of jubilee for example, it was no doubt better for the Jews than the systems we have these days in many ways.
Delinquent children who refuse to do anything certainly need a kick up the backside and that threat was the kick they needed. I see quite old children here, ones that would not work but then go off and steal and get drunk and etc etc. The law gave those kids a fright and was something to show the parents to discipline their children also.
Homosexual acts was what God said is something that He did not want in His land. What can I say. You say it is wonderful and natural and should be embraced and you disagree with my God.

Treating people as personal property, as goods that you can buy, sell and inherit, has no good purpose.
It only degrades humans and humanity at large.

It should be noted that ownership carried with it the responsibility to care for those people. It actually offered security for many who had no security outside that relationship.

And as per your own acknowledgement, when you find something is wrong and your god allows it, you assume that you are incorrect and just go with what you believe your god says and thus willingly ignore your own moral compass.

Again, this is how you get otherwise decent people to commit attrocities.

It is probably how you can get otherwise decent people to commit atrocities.
People have done that with other people for a long time.
Also just doing what we see as good in our own eyes has seen the same result.
With the Bible God it is a case of knowing how God wants us to treat others, all our neighbours and that should ensure the atrocities do not happen.

 

[RAYYAN]

Except that it is not that clear;

'God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice. Although the term translated here as adultery refers, in its broadest sense, to unlawful sexual intercourse between either married or unmarried individuals (see note 36 for a definition of the term), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has specified that the punishment here prescribed is for sexual intercourse between persons who are unmarried. He indicates that it remains for the Universal House of Justice to determine the penalty for adultery committed by a married individual. (See also Q and A 49.)'

Source: Chastity | Bahá’í Quotes

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 200.

Since marriage is defined in the Baha'i teachings as between a man and a woman it is a reasonable inference that homosexual sex will be treated as adultery and subject to a fine.

In my opinion.

This makes sense
Thank you

 

[King Phenomenon]

"Homosexuality" is an innate and vital part of a "homosexual" that cannot be separated from their person.
You may as well claim that saying "black skin is disgusting" is not racist against a black person.

Hope this helped.

drugs arent my cup of tea but I dont judge people that engage in them.