Homosexuality and religious.

[Spirit of Light]

And yet you agree that homosexuality is "an aberration the needs purging from the world".
Don't you see the contradiction?

Do i agree on that?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do i agree on that?

What God do to other people, is Gods business, not mine

 

[ChristineM]

No, it is absolutely about cherry-picked scripture.
There are specific passages that are blatantly homophobic. It is irrelevant what any other passages say.
The issue is then, does a Bahai accept that homophobia is morally acceptable in principle, or not.
@Seeker of White Light has admitted that they consider them to be morally acceptable in principle.
This highlights the dangers of blind following of dogma. I'm sure that they would not try to defend homophobia if it were not part of their perfect scripture, because they have gone round the houses to avoid the admission that they finally arrived at.
That is all.

Yes of course there are homophobic passages in just about every god book and if everyone followed their scripture we'd still be in the dark ages murdering old ladies as witches and going on crusades.

 

[KWED]

One doesn't really preclude the other imo. Lots of people with girlfriends still harbor lots of misogyny despite loving their girlfriends. Lots of people with an ethnic minority friend, family or spouse can still harbor racist views.

I can't imagine your girlfriend would respond well if you said 'I love you but you were wrong to have girlfriends before.' Not saying you would. But a lot of people might, when their religious beliefs come into contact with their loved ones.

I think I understand you well enough that you'd probably say something more like 'it's not my place to tell you how to live your life, that's between you and whatever creator there may be.' Certainly not an approach every Baha'i I've met wouod take. But not unheard of either.

I my gf said to me "I love you, but I genuinely, sincerely believe that blonde, blue eyed people are a genetic aberration than need purging from the earth", I would leave her (and worry about her mental health).

 

[KWED]

Actually when she told me about it, she asked me what i felt, @ADigitalArtist i think you know me better than i realized Because what you thought i would answer, is very near what i actually did reply to my girlfriend.

I told her that i was happy she informed me about it, and that i was not a person to judge her feelings for any human being. An other thing is that she is an atheist, she does not believe in God, so it is not my way of putting my belief onto her.

Have you told her that you believe her sexuality is "an evil aberration that needs purging from the world"?
No, of course you haven't.

Personally, anyone who thinks that about anyone's innate makeup is evil needs to have a long, hard look at themselves.

 

[KWED]

I speak only on behalf of my self, not on behalf of other baha`is

When did I ask you about other Bahais?
I asked you about your position on the homophobia in Bahai scripture. And we now know what it is. You consider it morally acceptable.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Have you told her that you believe her sexuality is "an evil aberration that needs purging from the world"?
No, of course you haven't.

Personally, anyone who thinks that about anyone's innate makeup need to have a long, hard look at themselves.

I have told her that I personally could not be with a man, but why should i use the words you just used? i have no reason to be evil toward my girlfriend or anybody else

 

[KWED]

And if I have no problem with people being homosexual and do not judge them,

Not homophobic

but my God has said that homosexual acts are something that He wants His people to avoid, am I homophobic?

But he didn't say that, did he. He calls it immoral, evil, to be punished with death, etc.
That is homophobic.
And if you accept your god's moral position on it, then you are homophobic as well.

 

[Spirit of Light]

When did I ask you about other Bahais?
I asked you about your position on the homophobia in Bahai scripture. And we now know what it is. You consider it morally acceptable.

I do not say what other people can or can not do, I personally can not be with an other man. Got it?

 

[KWED]

it is a illogical question, harming nobody means just that, to not harm other people physically or mentally

But homophobia harms people mentally, and you consider it to be morally acceptable.
Some consistency please.

Is whatever god decrees to be ok, ok by default. No personal consideration required?

 

[Spirit of Light]

But homophobia harms people mentally, and you consider it to be morally acceptable.
Some consistency please.

Is whatever god decrees to be ok, ok by default. No personal consideration required?

Have you still not understood what i am saying.

I am not personally homophobic, i dont mind any homosexual person, but i can not my self take part in that kind of action.
it is a personal choice who people sleep with, i am not here to judge homosexual people

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, that seems pretty worrying.
So if a person is widely popular, raises millions for charity, volunteers at hospitals, wins awards for public service, but also rapes children occasionally then we should ignore the child rape and concentrate on all the other stuff?
That Bahullah clearly had no idea what he was talking about.

I would not compare child rape with homosexuality. If you think they are comparable, that's on you.

If two adults of the same gender have consensual sex, that is legal where I lived and accepted behavior. I have no problem having close and friendly association with such people.

Rape is a profound violation of another person. I would be duty bound as a Baha'i to prevent such an offense or report it.

For Baha'is, justice is the most beloved of all things in the sight of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4

In considering any circumstance, one needs to exercise wisdom. Of course, with many principles there are exceptions and other considerations.

 

[KWED]

I have told her that I personally could not be with a man, but why should i use the words you just used?

Because those are the words used in Bahai Scripture, and you believe them to be true and morally acceptable. Why do you feel your need to hide it from her?

i have no reason to be evil toward my girlfriend or anybody else

So you admit that using those words about homosexuals is "evil".
And yet you consider them morally acceptable.

So presumably you can now see how irrational your positions become through trying to be true to both Bahai scripture and morality, and your own personal morality which are clearly in conflict.

 

[KWED]

I do not say what other people can or can not do, I personally can not be with an other man. Got it?

Irrelevant to the point I am making - as explained.

 

[KWED]

Have you still not understood what i am saying.

I am not personally homophobic, i dont mind any homosexual person, but i can not my self take part in that kind of action.
it is a personal choice who people sleep with, i am not here to judge homosexual people

What you are describing here is your own, personal morality and sexuality.
I was asking you about Bahai scriptural morality.
You earlier implied that they are the same, but now you seem to be saying that they are in conflict.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because those are the words used in Bahai Scripture, and you believe them to be true and morally acceptable. Why do you feel your need to hide it from her?

So you admit that using those words about homosexuals is "evil".
And yet you consider them morally acceptable.

So presumably you can now see how irrational your positions become through trying to be true to both Bahai scripture and morality, and your own personal morality which are clearly in conflict.

All i am saying is "AS A BAHA`I I can not do those actions. She is an atheist meaning she does not believe in the God i Believe in. So no need for me to put my belief onto her.

When it comes to your question about morally acceptable, i answer only for my own personal belief and what God telling through the scripture for me as a Baha`i to do, that is for me, as a person if i did have sex with an other man, i would voilate what God asked of me.

But as i trying to tell you. That count for my own personal action, between the God i believe in and me as a follower

 

[Spirit of Light]

Irrelevant to the point I am making - as explained.

I get it, you dont accept my different view than what the exact words in the teaching say, you want me to condemn the teaching i believe in because my personal view of homosexual people is slightly different then the exact words in the scripture

 

[KWED]

I would not compare child rape with homosexuality. If you think they are comparable, that's on you.

Who is comparing child rape to homosexuality?

I was replying to someone who claimed that Bahaullah said that we should ignore a person's bad actions and concentrate only on their good, even if the bad far outweighs the good.
Do you agree or does it sound like dangerous nonsense?

For Baha'is, justice is the most beloved of all things in the sight of God.

But if we ignore a person's bad actions because they have performed good actions, then where is the justice? (see my earlier example)

 

[Spirit of Light]

What you are describing here is your own, personal morality and sexuality.
I was asking you about Bahai scriptural morality.
You earlier implied that they are the same, but now you seem to be saying that they are in conflict.

You are confused

 

[KWED]

I get it, you dont accept my different view than what the exact words in the teaching say, you want me to condemn the teaching i believe in because my personal view of homosexual people is slightly different then the exact words in the scripture

So you admit that your own personal morality is different to the morality revealed in god's perfect word.
So now the million dollar question...
Which is superior?