God and Necessity

[Fool]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

Faith in a divine hand in your life goes a long ways. One thing I know for certain is that it's experienceable if you believe it is, whether or not it's psychological or real - well, that doesn't matter.

 

[syo]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

You forgot to mention love.

 

[Truth in love]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

God fails to do party tricks in the whims of mortals thus many conclude that He is not or is not provable. It’s almost like a teenager saying if you dad loved you he’d give you a lot of money and if he won’t than he is not real.

We learn, understand and experience His influence.

God does answer prayers, provide guidance, comfort and healing. These things are done for our benefit and most happen quietly.

Some would have the harvest before they plant, water weed, and wait. But life does not work that way. I study before I learn, I exercise before I gain muscle. I work before my room is clean.

Ether 12:6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.


If I want to be a doctor I apply, study, get tested often and only then can I graduate.


This natural order is accepted pretty much everywhere except when trying to understand the things of God.

 

[F1fan]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

Your question is about social cohesion and belonging. It is common human behavior to adopt and accept the social and cultural norms they are exposed to. Notice most Americans or English or Canadians spread and adopt Christian ideas and not those of Hinduism or Islam. This isn't a well thought out plan, it is just how the societies have evolved. Much of this social behavior is subconsciouss, and not any sort of deliberate plan. There are plans AFTER these social ideas are accepted, and this should not be confused as if social beliefs themselves are consciously chosen.

there is a dee, evolutionary drive to conform and to belong. There is stress for members of a social group to be outcast. In modern times there is more diversity, and more sub-grous, so a person can reject a belief they are exposed to but still find another tribe to belong to. We see this with gays being more oen about their state of being, and now with trans people coming out, and getting more support openly in society. The same applies to atheists who face less backlash and more acceptance.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Faith in a divine hand in your life goes a long ways. One thing I know for certain is that it's experienceable if you believe it is

So is a placebo.

, whether or not it's psychological or real - well, that doesn't matter.

It matters if you actually care about your beliefs being accurate and / or rationally justified.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So is a placebo.




It matters if you actually care about your beliefs being accurate and / or rationally justified.

Why does it matter as long as you remain a rational person? You don't always have to be correct, nobody knows everything anyways and when it comes to God there's really no way to know for sure one way or the other - so it really comes down to "whatever is working".

 

[dybmh]

why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

a practical or current use/need: the soul gets a unique relief when reconnecting with its source. One of the most common paths for reconnection is through heartfelt faith.

 

[1213]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

Bible tells that even demons believe God is. I don't think believing in the existence of God is therefore crucial.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous. That is why I think crucial thing is, is person righteous or not.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And if person is righteous, it shows in practice, for example person loves his brother.

...Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Can person be righteous without God?

 

[Twilight Hue]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable, then why would you need it? or maybe its something that is experienceable and self is overlooking the obvious? why would need a faith, a belief that doesn't have a practical or current use/need?

I think people need an avatar sometimes.

Appealing to a being larger and bigger than themselves even if it's only in one's imagination.

A role model essentially.

 

[stvdv]

if god exists and isn't provable or experienceable

God is "knowable"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why does it matter as long as you remain a rational person?

That doesn't make sense to me.
People aren't rational or irrational. Reasoning can be rational or irrational. People can engage in both and not "be" one or the other.

The problem is that your beliefs form the basis / input of your reasoning.
And irrational beliefs makes for irrational premises for your reasoning.

Your beliefs inform your actions, your reasoning, your decisions...

False beliefs make up for bad decisions.
Accurate beliefs will lead to good decisions. Or at least make it easier to make good decisions.

You don't always have to be correct

I disagree with the wording.
I prefer this:

You will not always be correct. But you should want and try to be

, nobody knows everything anyways and when it comes to God there's really no way to know for sure one way or the other

Yes, that's always the case with unfalsifiable things that are indistinguishable from non-existing things.
Undetectable extra-dimensional unicorns suffer from the same problem. There's no way to know if they exist or not.

But will you be losing sleep over it?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That doesn't make sense to me.
People aren't rational or irrational. Reasoning can be rational or irrational. People can engage in both and not "be" one or the other.

Of course they can! I would say someone is irrational if they make a lot of unwise decisions, act on delusion, or don't listen to reason. Anyone in control of themselves and their mind is a rational person.

The problem is that your beliefs form the basis / input of your reasoning.
And irrational beliefs makes for irrational premises for your reasoning.

Your beliefs inform your actions, your reasoning, your decisions...

False beliefs make up for bad decisions.
Accurate beliefs will lead to good decisions. Or at least make it easier to make good decisions.

Why do you think believing in God would automatically lead one to make bad decisions?

I disagree with the wording.
I prefer this:

You will not always be correct. But you should want and try to be

Of course, and when it comes to what we are talking about, whether or not God's intervention is placebo or actual, it's indistinguishable which one it is. There's really no reason to overthink it when it isn't doing any damage and in fact you could be benefiting from believing in it. Would you say the same for an actual placebo? Should someone taking placebo drugs be aware that what they are taking is actually a placebo?

Yes, that's always the case with unfalsifiable things that are indistinguishable from non-existing things.
Undetectable extra-dimensional unicorns suffer from the same problem. There's no way to know if they exist or not.

But will you be losing sleep over it?

That's not what I'm talking about. We don't know one way or another if God exists, so if you find believing in God is beneficial to you why should you not believe in God?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course they can! I would say someone is irrational if they make a lot of unwise decisions, act on delusion, or don't listen to reason. Anyone in control of themselves and their mind is a rational person.

First you agree and then you repeat the same thing I disagreed with.
Again, people "are" not rational or irrational. Their reasoning can be.
People are rational most of the time. They wouldn't be living very long if they weren't.

People who are always irrational, likely will find themselves in psychiatric institutions.

Why do you think believing in God would automatically lead one to make bad decisions?

That's not what I said.
I said that holding false beliefs which inform your decision making process, will lead to making bad decisions.
Your conclusion can only be as good as your premises. When you conclude the best course of action is X, then you've arrived at that conclusion through an argument which uses premises.

If those premises are false, how will that reflect on your conclusion do you think?

The give you an example so simple that it borders on the stupid, just to make the point...
Suppose you have a belief that you can fly without the use of tech. We both stand on top of the empire state building and we want to go down. I take the elevator. You jump down believing you can fly.

Not exactly a good decision, right?
That decision is the direct result of false premises. That premise being a false belief that you hold.

Essentially it comes down to the equivalent of acting on bad intel.

Of course, and when it comes to what we are talking about, whether or not God's intervention is placebo or actual, it's indistinguishable which one it is.

Then the most likely outcome is that it is the thing that is actually demonstrable and known to exist: the placebo.

Consider this:
You bake a cake and leave it on the table. It's hot outside so the window is open.
You leave the house for a few minutes. You come back and the cake is gone.
Options:
- someone, or an animal, came in through the window and took the cake.
- undetectable goblins entered our dimension, stole it and went back into their parallel universe.

Whether it's extra-dimensional goblins or an animal, it's indistinguishable which one it is.
But are you really going to give the goblins option a second of thought?

There's really no reason to overthink it when it isn't doing any damage and in fact you could be benefiting from believing in it. Would you say the same for an actual placebo? Should someone taking placebo drugs be aware that what they are taking is actually a placebo?

Actually, the placebo effect can be quite dangerous.
Suppose someone is seriously ill. Like some cancer or something. And the dude's quak gives him homeopathy and the dude really believes such medicines work. The placebo effect might set in and make the dude think he's feeling better. He's not actually feeling better though. The cancer is still raging and in fact is spreading. Precious time might be lost by wasting time with homeopathy.

Again, it comes down to how false beliefs make for bad decision making. How acting on bad intel doesn't end well.

Sometimes it might, sure. But imo such instances are more a case of luck then anything else.
For someone suffering from hypochondria for example, placebo's might indeed make a difference for the better. But such situations are exceptional.

And let's not forget that religions tend to come with a whole lot of baggage also. Surely you can point to a couple aspects that are beneficial. Does it weigh up to all the nasty stuff that comes with it?

Religion is more then just some inconsequential "believing in some higher power"

That's not what I'm talking about. We don't know one way or another if God exists, so if you find believing in God is beneficial to you why should you not believe in God?

Thinking something is beneficial for you doesn't actually make it so.

Jehova's witnesses believe having blood transfusions is harmful for them. In reality it can save their life.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

First you agree and then you repeat the same thing I disagreed with.
Again, people "are" not rational or irrational. Their reasoning can be.
People are rational most of the time. They wouldn't be living very long if they weren't.

People who are always irrational, likely will find themselves in psychiatric institutions.

Back to the main point then, why does it matter whether or not you have faith in God as long as you behave and think rationally?

That's not what I said.
I said that holding false beliefs which inform your decision making process, will lead to making bad decisions.
Your conclusion can only be as good as your premises. When you conclude the best course of action is X, then you've arrived at that conclusion through an argument which uses premises.

If those premises are false, how will that reflect on your conclusion do you think?

The give you an example so simple that it borders on the stupid, just to make the point...
Suppose you have a belief that you can fly without the use of tech. We both stand on top of the empire state building and we want to go down. I take the elevator. You jump down believing you can fly.

Not exactly a good decision, right?
That decision is the direct result of false premises. That premise being a false belief that you hold.

Essentially it comes down to the equivalent of acting on bad intel.

Of course if you believe you can fly without testing your technology in a safer situation then you are irrational, simply believing in God does not make one irrational.

Then the most likely outcome is that it is the thing that is actually demonstrable and known to exist: the placebo.

Consider this:
You bake a cake and leave it on the table. It's hot outside so the window is open.
You leave the house for a few minutes. You come back and the cake is gone.
Options:
- someone, or an animal, came in through the window and took the cake.
- undetectable goblins entered our dimension, stole it and went back into their parallel universe.

Whether it's extra-dimensional goblins or an animal, it's indistinguishable which one it is.
But are you really going to give the goblins option a second of thought?

I would love to debate the existence of God with you, but I don't know how much of a debate it would be. My reasoning all stems from personal experiences that led me to believe in God, which I would gladly share with you, but I'm fully aware that it could all be psychological. To me it really doesn't make a difference, my faith in God has guided me through my life and I very much believe it is God, and even if it isn't it's that belief which strengthens my optimism.

Actually, the placebo effect can be quite dangerous.
Suppose someone is seriously ill. Like some cancer or something. And the dude's quak gives him homeopathy and the dude really believes such medicines work. The placebo effect might set in and make the dude think he's feeling better. He's not actually feeling better though. The cancer is still raging and in fact is spreading. Precious time might be lost by wasting time with homeopathy.

Homeopathy is not the same as believing in God. One must be aware of the consequences of their actions, and disregarding science to practice homeopathy isn't rational. In what way does this relate to the belief in divine providence?

Again, it comes down to how false beliefs make for bad decision making. How acting on bad intel doesn't end well.

Sometimes it might, sure. But imo such instances are more a case of luck then anything else.
For someone suffering from hypochondria for example, placebo's might indeed make a difference for the better. But such situations are exceptional.

And let's not forget that religions tend to come with a whole lot of baggage also. Surely you can point to a couple aspects that are beneficial. Does it weigh up to all the nasty stuff that comes with it?

Religion is more then just some inconsequential "believing in some higher power"

I apologize for not making this clearer from the beginning. I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about the belief in God alone. Religion can (but not necessarily) cause one to act irrationally (usually the person had irrational tendencies to begin with though).

Thinking something is beneficial for you doesn't actually make it so.

Jehova's witnesses believe having blood transfusions is harmful for them. In reality it can save their life.

Being against blood transfusions is irrational *take a shot every time I say irrational *. It wasn't simply because they believed in God that they followed such an atrocious doctrine, it's because they fell victim to letting cult leaders make decisions for them.

 

[Fool]

God is "knowable"

If that is true, then why do skeptics not know it?

 

[Fool]

Faith in a divine hand in your life goes a long ways. One thing I know for certain is that it's experienceable if you believe it is, whether or not it's psychological or real - well, that doesn't matter.

How do you experience something that you believe is outside the universe? What physical instrument is capable of detecting what isn't physical?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

How do you experience something that you believe is outside the universe? What physical instrument is capable of what isn't physical?

I don't necessarily believe God is outside of the universe, rather is the universe. As for how to detect God's presence and providence, that is not a physical thing to detect, just in the same way you wouldn't physically detect someone's love for you. You could see that someone gives you kisses and gifts, but that isn't necessarily love. You can sense the true compassion of their actions, that's how you sense the sincerity of love. I believe feeling God's presence works in the same way: by observing how your life has unfolded and seeing the miracles within. Not everyone sees their lives as miracles, so it's all about perception.

 

[stvdv]

God is "knowable"

If that is true, then why do skeptics not know it?

knowable: able to be observed, understood, or ascertained

To answer your question:
Because skeptics don't follow the prescribed instructions given by the Wise, Saints, Sages etc.

Even Scientists follow prescribed instructions to get proof of something in the field of Science. Not any different in Spirituality

 

[Fool]

I don't necessarily believe God is outside of the universe, rather is the universe. As for how to detect God's presence and providence, that is not a physical thing to detect, just in the same way you wouldn't physically detect someone's love for you. You could see that someone gives you kisses and gifts, but that isn't necessarily love. You can sense the true compassion of their actions, that's how you sense the sincerity of love. I believe feeling God's presence works in the same way: by observing how your life has unfolded and seeing the miracles within. Not everyone sees their lives as miracles, so it's all about perception.

I don't believe it is either. I know it's omnipresent; otherwise I can't experience it. So why hold a belief that you can only experience outside the physical when in fact its operating in the physical as some believe