Nothing lasts forever in this life

[CG Didymus]

All I am asking is whether you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are not true, then, if that is the language you prefer. I am not saying they are not true, because I accept that they could be. But by the same token, they might not be, right?

The answers are usually "yes, it's possible". Yet, they are certain? So, wouldn't that mean, that to them, it is not possible? I don't understand. Why don't they just stick with, "Even though, there is no objective, tangible, scientific proof, we believe for sure, with absolute certainty, that God exists, and Baha'u'llah is his manifestation. And I'm sure a lot of ex-Baha'is thought that also... until they stopped believing it. So, for them, their certainty wasn't so certain.

One thing for sure, because they can't prove any of their beliefs about God and Baha'u'llah, these types of threads will never end.

 

[Goldemar]

I think I answered that already.
I said: Sure it is possible that my beliefs are not true. Anything is possible unless it has been proven impossible.

I think a more useful question is: How can we ever know if our beliefs are true?
Another useful question is: What if my beliefs are true, what are the implications of that?

Well, as to your first question, I think we will probably have to wait until we die or (if God exists), we meet God.

As to your second question, then we should practice what we preach!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..It's too easy to say, "I believe in God", but the person is believing in very different things about God..

Do you believe in God? Simple question..

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you believe in God? Simple question..

So far, I've believed in three different versions of God. A New-Age version, the Fundy Christian version that makes Jesus part of the Godhead, and in between those two, I believe the Baha'i version. Or "believe" might not be the best word. It was more like I assumed what people were telling me was true. But after three contradictory versions were told to me as if they were the absolute truth, then I came to distrust what believers in any religion told me. I understand that they believe it. That it their beliefs make sense to them. But there's just too many contradictory beliefs. I get the feeling that people really don't know. They are just making semi-reasoned guesses about God and spiritual truth. But it's the Atheists here on the forum that pin-pointed the problem... there is no proof. Only beliefs, claims and whatever "proof" apologists come up with. But are they trustworthy or do they just find things that support the religions that they believe in?

So, now for your simple question... What do you do with Baha'u'llah? Liar, lunatic or the Promised One of all ages, a manifestation of God?

If you flip it back on me, then I can tell you... I don't know. I don't believe in everything that is taught in the Baha'i Faith. I think their interpretations of fulfilled prophecies have several problems. I don't believe in their theory of "progressive" revelation. And a few other things. But peace, love and unity? Sure, if they can help make the world better, then great. Go for it. But I'm a little concerned with them someday getting total control of the whole world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, as to your first question, I think we will probably have to wait until we die or (if God exists), we meet God.

I don't think we can really know for sure until we die, but I have thought about this a lot, and I don't think everyone will know after they die. I think that if my beliefs are true I will know because the things that it says in the Baha'i Writings will come to pass. The same holds true for a Christian or a Muslim, etc. if what they believed was true. But hypothetically speaking, if one of the beliefs was the true one, I don't think everyone else who held the false belief would know about the true belief.

There is a funny Baha'i joke about heaven I will post if you want to hear it.

As to your second question, then we should practice what we preach!

I agree we should practice what we preach, but by 'implications' I was thinking more along the lines of how it might affect our eternal destination if our belief was true.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, now for your simple question... What do you do with Baha'u'llah? Liar, lunatic or the Promised One of all ages, a manifestation of God?

If you flip it back on me, then I can tell you... I don't know..

You don't know !
What sort of answer is that?
Either you believe in God, or you don't..

..if you don't know, then I suppose you are agnostic.
Personally, I am certain that God exists.

I'm not interested in your divide and rule tactics.
@Trailblazer and I believe in the same God .. the Creator and Maintainer of the universe.
Our creeds might differ slightly .. so what?

 

[Goldemar]

I don't think we can really know for sure until we die, but I have thought about this a lot, and I don't think everyone will know after they die. I think that if my beliefs are true I will know because the things that it says in the Baha'i Writings will come to pass. The same holds true for a Christian or a Muslim, etc. if what they believed was true. But hypothetically speaking, if one of the beliefs was the true one, I don't think everyone else who held the false belief would know about the true belief.

There is a funny Baha'i joke about heaven I will post if you want to hear it.

I agree we should practice what we preach, but by 'implications' I was thinking more along the lines of how it might affect our eternal destination if our belief was true.

Sure, please do tell the joke!

Well if my belief is true, we'll all eventually get to heaven, but for some it will take a helluva lot longer than others..

 

[CG Didymus]

Our creeds might differ slightly .. so what?

Differ slightly? They believe that their prophet is the return of every promised one of every religion. The laws and teachings he brought have replaced the teachings and the laws of the past religions. And one day, they believe, the world will be united as one under his teachings.

So, if that only a slight difference, then how do you feel about the creeds of the other religions? Especially Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, please do tell the joke!

Well if my belief is true, we'll all eventually get to heaven, but for some it will take a helluva lot longer than others..

Okay, here are the two jokes, as told by Dale, who was the owner of the Plant Baha'i forum.

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?"

"Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. To make this short, I'll just say he goes through the same deal as in the previous joke, except he gets to see the Christians. Finally, they come to one last door, which St. Peter opens. "This was built for the Baha'is," he says. But when the Baha'i looks in, he finds that the room is empty!

"Oh no!" he cries. "This can't be! How can I be the only Baha'i here??"

"Calm down," St. Peter says. "The Baha'is are all off travel teaching in hell."

 

[ppp]

Anything is possible unless it has been proven impossible.

That is not true.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not true.

Then what is true?

 

[ppp]

That is not true.

A possible event is possible irrespective of whether or not it has been proven to be possible. An impossible event is impossible irrespective of whether or not it has been proven to be impossible.

A mere lack of proof of impossibility does not make that event possible. The lack of proof just means that the possibility is unknown. Even if the possibility is zero.

 

[Trailblazer]

A possible event is possible irrespective of whether or not it has been proven to be possible. An impossible event is impossible irrespective of whether or not it has been proven to be impossible.

A mere lack of proof of impossibility does not make that event possible. The lack of proof just means that the possibility is unknown. Even if the possibility is zero.

That's true. Proof has nothing to do with it. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[ppp]

That's true. Proof has nothing to do with it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes. You are welcome. Proof has nothing for to with whether it is possible. However proof, or less colloquially, evidence has everything to do with whether one is justified in believing that the given event is possible.

 

[Goldemar]

Okay, here are the two jokes, as told by Dale, who was the owner of the Plant Baha'i forum.

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?"

"Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. To make this short, I'll just say he goes through the same deal as in the previous joke, except he gets to see the Christians. Finally, they come to one last door, which St. Peter opens. "This was built for the Baha'is," he says. But when the Baha'i looks in, he finds that the room is empty!

"Oh no!" he cries. "This can't be! How can I be the only Baha'i here??"

"Calm down," St. Peter says. "The Baha'is are all off travel teaching in hell."

I particularly like the first joke (which could be told about others who believe they're the only ones who will get to heaven, such as many Moslems).

 

[Trailblazer]

I particularly like the first joke (which could be told about others who believe they're the only ones who will get to heaven, such as many Moslems).

Yes, it could be told about others aside from Christians, especially "certain" Muslims.

 

[Truthseeker]

She didn't say anything about Joseph Smith's claim to have spoken to an angel. Then, supposedly, the angel told him where to find the Golden Plates that had the Book of Mormon written on them. But it was in a strange language, so the angel gave him special stones that allowed him to read the plates.

To translate, Smith said the angel Moroni gave him two transparent translation stones, Urim and Tummim, which he could use as magic glasses to read the plates. At first, Smith went through a series of scribes, who wrote down his words while he hid with the plates behind a blanket or curtain.​

And just what is in this Book of Mormon? What's it all about?

(T)he Book of Mormon's internal chronology takes place prior to the birth of Jesus, prophets in the book frequently see him in vision and preach about him, and the people in the book worship Jesus as "pre-Christian Christians."

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus visits some early inhabitants of the Americas after his resurrection, and this event is often described as the climax of the book.
​

She says, "Baha’is believe he was a seer, not an actual prophet sent by God." Really? Baha'is believe that huh? He was not delusional? He wasn't a fraud and just making all this up? Does that mean it is true that the Angel Moroni visited him and told him about the Golden Plates? And he used the special stones to translate the Plates into the Book of Mormon? And in the Book of Mormon, it says that the resurrected Jesus visited the people in the Americas?

I can see why Mormons believe that. It is their religion. But why would Baha'is believe that all that is true? And I get the feeling they don't. Or... Do Baha'i have to believe it, because that is what the Baha'i writings teach... That Joseph Smith was a seer.

As there is nothing specific about Joseph Smith in the teachings, the Guardian has no statement to make on his position or about the accuracy of any statement in the Book of Mormon regarding American history or its peoples. This is a matter for historians to pass upon.
(Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 71)

The reference to Joseph as a seer by Shoghi Effendi is a pilgrim note, that is, a recollection of something he said, and those we consider unreliable.

I have read some of the Book of Mormon, and have come to a personal conclusion that the story behind it is highly unlikely to have occured, and the story at the end where Jesus comes floating down saying the same words as in the Gospels almost word for word as straining credibility.

However, the Mormons are taught good morals in a number of areas, and their scripture certainly gives them motivation to follow those morals.

 

[Truthseeker]

Okay, here are the two jokes, as told by Dale, who was the owner of the Plant Baha'i forum.

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?"

"Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. To make this short, I'll just say he goes through the same deal as in the previous joke, except he gets to see the Christians. Finally, they come to one last door, which St. Peter opens. "This was built for the Baha'is," he says. But when the Baha'i looks in, he finds that the room is empty!

"Oh no!" he cries. "This can't be! How can I be the only Baha'i here??"

"Calm down," St. Peter says. "The Baha'is are all off travel teaching in hell."

Sara also says those jokes. I think they are common among Baha'is. I don't think she learned those from Dale, anyway, since she didn't participate at Planet Baha'i. I don't really say jokes. I never have. I don't know why exactly. Perhaps because I am not very verbal or social.

 

[muhammad_isa]

how do you feel about the creeds of the other religions? Especially Christianity.

I think that they believe in the same Creator God as I do.
There is a HUGE difference between somebody who denies the existence of God, and a believer. They reject Scripture, claiming that it has no Divine origin.

 

[KWED]

Who are you to change my personal belief?

Oh dear. You still aren't getting this, are you?
I am merely challenging the claims you make about your beliefs (this is a religious debate forum, after all). If those challenges lead to you reassessing your beliefs, then so be it.
If those challenges just make you angry with the person doing the challenging, then there seems to be a problem with your beliefs - but it is still only you who can change them.