In the beginning

[Aasimar]

Heya, more entertainment brought to you by the Agnostic ever questioning mind of Aasimar. I'm gonna have to make some assumptions in here. I assume the Adam and Eve story was true (That's one that's kinda hard to see as non-literal, IMO. Of course, I haven't tried all that hard, since I don't believe.) So God created man and woman in his own image and likeness, and they were without knowledge of good and evil if I remember right, which I may be wrong. God puts them in paradise and says, don't eat from that tree. So Eve grabs it and chomps down, gives adam one, he chomps down, or something like that, they ate the fruit of the tree of life. God says, you disobeyed me, now you get this terrible punishment. He makes them live like we do now, you will have to grow and find your own food, and you will die and return to the dust from whence you came, etc. etc. Here's the part I don't understand. If god created man without knowledge of good and evil, how did we know disobeying him was evil? That's a pretty weak question I know, but if the answer is we did have knowledge and we chose evil, disobedience to god's will was evil, doesn't that just seem like slavery to you? I don't know, it just kinda seems to me like putting a little kid in a room with 1000000 toys, everything he could want to play with, but don't play with the tonka truck in the middle of the room. Of course the kid is gonna play with the tonka truck, he doesn't know any better and you drew his attention too it.

On a completely seperate note, can any catholics (I'm fairly certain catholics have a lot more information about angels, I never really heard much as a protestant.) tell me if god gave angels free will or not? Because I don't get the whole Lucifer thing at all. How does an omnipotent being have a non-omnipotent rival? I mean, god kills people sometimes for sinning, but he doesn't take out Lucifer, the sinner of all sinners? It's just a confusing topic. It's not like there could be 2 omnipotent beings, kinda destroys the point of being omnipotent. Thanks

 

[The Seeker]

The topics you bring up are the reasons why I am no longer a Christian. The biblical story of creation makes no sense in so many different ways (including those you mentioned). I always wondered why God put the tree of life in the garden in the first place? If God is omnipotent and wanted to behave in a certain way, then why did he give us free will? Also, as you noted, why hasn't God killed Satan? I've also thought that the punishment that God handed down on humanity for eating an apple was a bit harsh. Doesn't sound like a benevolent god to me. I know some Christians believe that the story of Adam and Eve is only a myth. To these people I must ask:
1. If the story is a myth, then why believe in other parts of the Bible?
2. How do you believe the universe came into existence?

Thanks.

 

[blueman]

In regards to question #1, Adam and Eve did know the difference between good and evil, because God laid it out for them from the beginning.

Regarding your second question, God gave both human and angels free will, henceforth leading to Lucifer's (and other angels) decision to rebel against God.

 

[Aasimar]

In regards to question #1, Adam and Eve did know the difference between good and evil, because God laid it out for them from the beginning.

I just don't understand. God knows everything, so he knew we would pick evil. But he gave us free will, but it's not really free because he knew what we were going to do, so it was predetermined. If he did know what we were going to do, then he created inherently evil creatures, and free will is a myth. Thus fatalism is the way to go. If he didn't know what we were going to do, he is not omniscient, and thus is capable of mistakes. Does that make sense to you or does it sound ridiculous? I have difficulty writing down what goes on in my head sometimes lol. I guess the main point I was making was that omniscience is knowing everything, absolutely everything. Free will is the ability to influence the outcome independent of divine influence. So that would mean God doesn't know everything, so he's fallible. Which makes a great deal more sense to me, if he exists. Being perfect and all-powerful and all-knowing just seems so very dull.

 

[The Seeker]

I recently finished a college course on the philosophical arguments for God's existence. I came away with the notion that their is no way that an omnipotent and omniscient god created the Earth that we inhabit. Just think about it, if you were omnipotent and omniscient would you create the world in which we live?

 

[blueman]

The evil influence already existed and was an outbirth of Satan's rebellion and this influence was in play in the Garden of Eden. God is all-knowing, but does not control what we ultimately choose to do. The reason He gave us free will and not force us to serve Him, is because He wants us to love and obey Him willingly. If He did not give humans free will, we would all be choosing Him. There be no doubt in your mind, would there? There is another influence in play, whose sole goal is to blind and confuse you to the mystery and truth that has been made known through Jesus Christ. Satan is at work as well!

 

[The Seeker]

If He did not give humans free will, we would all be choosing Him.

And what exactly would be wrong with this? Why allow Satan to have influence over us and make our lives miserable? It all doesn't make sense to me.

 

[blueman]

God is Sovereign and we have to respect and honor that fact. The fact He gave me free will shows me how much He loved me. The fact that the first man and woman caused sinned to enter this world is something that we all have to be accountable for because we are tainted by the seed of man and inherit a sinful nature. We have restoration through Jesus Christ, another and most important example of God's love and way to redemption.

 

[Papersock]

I don't know, it just kinda seems to me like putting a little kid in a room with 1000000 toys, everything he could want to play with, but don't play with the tonka truck in the middle of the room. Of course the kid is gonna play with the tonka truck, he doesn't know any better and you drew his attention too it.

I like this comparison

The story doesn't make much sense to me. It sounds a lot like any other creation story I've read. They're all pretty clever in their own way, trying to explain why the world is the way it is. But they also just seem made-up.

Where did that talking serpent come from? Did all animals talk back then? I was taught that the serpent was Satan. But it doesn't actually say that in the story.

I'd like the Genesis creation better if they left Lilith in it.

 

[Aasimar]

God is all-knowing, but does not control what we ultimately choose to do.

That is impossible. You cannot know everything but not know what I'm going to do. And if he knows I'm gonna disobey him in advance and he still punishes me because he made me this way then he's in no way worthy of my worship, he's a sadist. The only way I can see for god to exist is that he is flawed, he messed up. Which isn't so terrible really, every screws up. A flawed god would be much easier to believe in, makes a great deal more sense. Even though I don't think I can ever come to terms with the "You guys have to kill my son, who is actually me, so I can forgive you for being the way I made you."

 

[Papersock]

Maybe the story is just about how people are naturally disobedient and that's what gets us in trouble.

 

[Quagmire]

The evil influence already existed and was an outbirth of Satan's rebellion and this influence was in play in the Garden of Eden.

Nope, not according to the Bible;

Genisis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made,and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God had just got done creating the Universe, and He gave the whole shabang His seal of approval.

Did He miss something?

 

[Aasimar]

Maybe the story is just about how people are naturally disobedient and that's what gets us in trouble.

What? Being disobedient never got me in trouble, oh wait. Err... never mind. Maybe, but that assumes it's a story and not true, which is also acceptable in my mind

 

[blueman]

The fact that He gave you free will and knowingly is aware of your whole life's path due to His omniscience does not take away the fact that He has given you a path to righteousness and a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. Even though we as humans do screw up from time to time and will continue to while we reside is bodies corrupted by an sinful nature, Jesus destroy the condemnation of sin with His death on the cross more than 2000 years ago. If we confess our sins (srew-ups), He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God had a purpose from the beginning and that was to present a path to salvation and redemption through God The Son.

 

[Papersock]

Why didn't jesus come right after Adam and Eve sinned so they would have a chance to be forgiven?

I guess now I'm assuming to know how to do things better than god...

 

[Aasimar]

The fact that He gave you free will and knowingly is aware of your whole life's path due to His omniscience does not take away the fact that He has given you a path to righteousness and a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ.

He gave me a path, but he knows what I'm gonna do anyway, so free will is a myth, and I am a puppet in his game. And since he designed every fiber of my being and knew that by presenting me with my exact life I would lead this exact life and end up at whatever result I end up at either implies that everyone ends up choosing right in the end or we are predestined to wherever we are going. So whatever I do is already foreseen and thus is unchangeable, the wheel of fate continues to turn. I hope you picked me out for the happy place and not the sad one

 

[The Seeker]

That is impossible. You cannot know everything but not know what I'm going to do. And if he knows I'm gonna disobey him in advance and he still punishes me because he made me this way then he's in no way worthy of my worship, he's a sadist. The only way I can see for god to exist is that he is flawed, he messed up.

My thoughts exactly. If the biblical God exists he has some issues. Take the story of Job for example. Here is a man that was the obedient and loyal to God, yet God let Satan kill his family as well as take away his health and wealth just to prove to Satan that Job would still be faithful to him. If the biblical God exists then I guess I'm going to Hell because there is no way he is worthy of worship.

 

[Super Universe]

There are other, more logical, versions of the Adam and Eve story.

Life evolved on the earth because of the influence of the life carriers which are a certain segment of angels who are the genetic engineers for the universe. These angels identify new homes for new life experiments then cause life to begin and assist it only as necessary to ensure it's survival and growth.

Once a life form becomes sentient and makes the first moral decision their interference must end. But, the angels do return, not the genetic engineers but a lesser form of angels who volunteer for the development of primitive lifeforms.

These angelic volunteers are always one male and one female and are always known as Adam and Eve regardless of their true names, their kind are known as Elohim.

At the time that Adam and Eve arrived upon the earth the primitive humans worshipped the sun, the moon, and even the wind. They did this because they had no explanation for these strangely magical things.

The job of Adam and Eve was to give the primitive humans a very basic knowledge of everything: God, sciences, art, legal structure... Also Adam and Eve were to have many children which were eventually going to slowly interbreed with the primitive humans over time. This is the way it was supposed to happen.

Adam and Eve built a home and surrounded it with a garden. In this earthly garden was one tree they had brought from their beautiful angelic home. It was not a tree of good and evil but it did have a special affect upon these lesser angels. I'm not going to describe it other than to say it is like insulin to a diabetic.

Over many, many, years Eve became distraught. She was homesick and she felt that their mission was a failure because the primitive humans did not understand or adopt well to the new teachings. The primitive humans still worshipped the sun and sacrificed animals to appease the non-existant god who somehow caused the ground to shake and worst of all the humans actually thought of Adam and Eve and their children as gods.

Eve felt that it was the primitive brain of the humans that was keeping them from understanding (and she was right) so she had intercourse with the leader of a human tribe. Adultery is the true original sin. Eve then gave birth to Cain who's father was a human.

Even though Eve's intentions were good what she did was specifically forbidden by her kind. One of the reasons is because when you have intercourse energy transfers to develop a bond with the other person. That is why it is called making love. Also this had a great effect on the primitive human genetics, it was too much too soon. Brain size increased quickly with a corresponding increase in skull size of babies. This is the real cause of the pain a woman feels during childbirth. It was never a punishment from God.

Eve was judged by her own kind and sentenced to be mortal. Adam chose the same fate as his wife. Of course they knew that once they died a human death that they would continue onward and upward as eternal spirits so this was not as distressing as you might think.

Naturally Adam and Eve's other son's and daughter's did not take well to Cain and one day Cain and Abel argued and fought, Cain killed Abel and then fled.

 

[Aasimar]

Hmm. What faith is this? Or did you just come up with it?

 

[Super Universe]

Yep, I just made it up (sarcasm).

Sorry it takes away another reason for you to hate God but then, you can just go back to believing that serpents talk, and God puts trees with the knowledge of good and evil in tempting places, and that God has all these pitiful and strangely very human personality traits.