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The mystery of the Bible

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Introductory example:
In the book of genesis God told Adam and Eve, if you eat the apple you will certainly die.
The serpent told them they won't die but their eyes will open instead.

This tells us the serpent was telling the truth since they didn't die, but I wouldn't call God a liar either
but instead there is a hidden meaning of "death", that is one has to grasp what did God mean.

In this specific case "death" is actually spiritual death:
In Christian theology, spiritual death is separation from God caused by sin.
Spiritual death in Christianity - Wikipedia

Interpretation:
P1
- The bible (a word of God) is a locked book that needs to be unlocked to know the truth, only a correct interpretation can lead to truth
P2 - The work of the devil (the serpent) is to unravel to people what was concealed by God, and this leads to spiritual death.

Additional insight gives Proverbs 25:2:
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to fathom a matter.
Proverbs 25:2 NABRE - It is the glory of God to conceal a - Bible Gateway

If you click on the link above you'll see a footnote which tells that "kings" are not people in this context but literary kings.
Who are kings but those who rule over ordinary people (or group of people) in one way or another?
Ordinary people like us are obviously not kings.

Thus:
P3 - Ordinary people don't know the truth

Conclusion:
Following 3 propositions are to be taken in respect to each other:

P3 - The bible tells the truth, there is no lie in the bible
P4 - The literal meaning of the bible is not truth
P5 - Knowing the truth will cause you spiritual death

Conclusion1 - Truth is esoteric (proper to kings - royal knowledge)
Conclusion2 - Seeking to know the truth is evil

What is truth?

Debate as you please.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Your interpretation is pretty weak. There was no "apple". The fruit referred to was the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". It was 'God-knowledge'. And that was forbidden to mankind as it would destroy us.

The serpent claimed that to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil would make us gods, ourselves. It would make us God's equals. So we chose to "eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

But mankind cannot steal from God what God has denied us, and so all we took into ourselves (ingested) was the false presumption that we possessed the knowledge of good and evil, based entirely on what we deemed good for ourselves, or not good for ourselves. And the unfortunate result of our adopting this phony presumption is that we began to see Eden as a failed, flawed creation, because it wasn't serving ourselves as we deemed we should be served. And so we set about "correcting" it. A labor that has no end, and no point of fulfillment. We doomed ourselves to endless labor and discontent by our own selfishness.

Eden is still all around us, but we can't see it anymore, because all we see is how it's not measuring up to our selfish presumptions of what is "good and evil". This being the 'sin' that underpins and generates all other sins. This being mankind's 'original sin'.
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Your interpretation is pretty weak. There was no "apple". The fruit referred to was the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". It was 'God-knowledge'. And that was forbidden to mankind as it would destroy us.
ok, fruit or apple does it really matter? the fact is that they ate it by the devil's intercession.

The serpent claimed that to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil would make us gods, ourselves.
not gods but like god - knowing good and evil, anyway they didn't die as God said, that's the point.

But mankind cannot steal from God what God has denied us, and so all we took into ourselves (ingested) was the false presumption that we possessed the knowledge of good and evil, based entirely on what we deemed good for ourselves, or not good for ourselves.
That's false, we all know what's good and what's bad regardless of selfish desires.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Introductory example:
Interpretation:
P1
- The bible (a word of God) is a locked book that needs to be unlocked to know the truth, only a correct interpretation can lead to truth
I would reject the notion of such as thing as a "correct interpretation", as that suggests there is only one right meaning to be had from the texts. That is not its nature. Rather it is meant to provoke and inspire thoughts and ideas, and insights in the plural.

If you make it about a correct singular point of view, you destroy its nature which is about revealing truths (plural), hidden within ourselves. It's a provoker, so to speak. Not a book of hidden scientific knowledge and special hidden codes.

P2 - The work of the devil (the serpent) is to unravel to people what was concealed by God, and this leads to spiritual death.
Rather I'd say that human nature, as captured well with in this story, tells of our propensity to try to control the world, as opposed to going with its natural flow. I see it as a story that puts in its creative characters, this human way, verses the way of God, or the Tao, or Nature, all of which can be called God, of that which is Higher than the human way of control through egoic efforts.

The devil then, is simply the way of the flesh, or the delusion of the human mind to seek to control that which is beyond itself. To be "God" in other words. Not to listen to God and adapt ourselves to the flow of the "Spirit", as it were, but to plunder and exploit and impose our wills upon it, without the foresight or Wisdom to know what we are doing. Let's talk about human-caused Global Warming shall we?

Inside of us is both the devil and God. Which voice do we listen to? Which dog in that fight do we feed? That's the dog that wins. The story is about this dual nature of humankind, and our battles within ourselves and the subsequent consequences for our failures to go with the Way. "No man comes to the Father, but through me", means just that - being in balance and harmony with Life herself.

Additional insight gives Proverbs 25:2:

Proverbs 25:2 NABRE - It is the glory of God to conceal a - Bible Gateway

If you click on the link above you'll see a footnote which tells that "kings" are not people in this context but literary kings.

Who are kings but those who rule over ordinary people (or group of people) in one way or another?
Ordinary people like us are obviously not kings.
Not really true. Bear in mind, the metaphor of kings, applies to anyone who is in the "Way". We are able to see the hidden things of God. That is what it means to be "born again", where you are actually able to see the Kingdom of God - here, present in this world. See Rev. 1:6.

Thus:
P3 - Ordinary people don't know the truth
Ordinary in the sense that they are only following the ways of the flesh, and not the Spirit. They are following their egos and trying to control Life, not harmonizing themselves with it, surrendering to it, and learning to flow with it. Those who do those things, are by the standards of "normal", quite extra-ordinary. ;)

Conclusion:
Following 3 propositions are to be taken in respect to each other:

P3 - The bible tells the truth, there is no lie in the bible
But there is human perceptions of truth in the Bible. Those may not be lies, per se of course, but that doesn't automatically means they are infallible perceptions, does it? I don't believe that is true.

Conclusion1 - Truth is esoteric (proper to kings - royal knowledge)
That type of truth which is Wisdom or divine Truth, is esoteric of course. Those who know it, metaphorically speaking are "kings", possessing "royal knowledge". And that can apply to the simple janitor of your school, if they are so amenable to it.

Conclusion2 - Seeking to know the truth is evil
Seeking to seize and control that Truth through the ego, is "evil". It's like a child with a chainsaw. :)

What is truth?
Indeed. What do you think it all is?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
ok, fruit or apple does it really matter? the fact is that they ate it by the devil's intercession.
It matters what it represents; the "knowledge of good and evil". A knowledge that we cannot actually possess. A knowledge that, thinking we possess it, makes us imagine that we are demigods. That the whole world "belongs to us" as if we created it. And so we stand in judgment of it, and find it wanting, out of our own selfishness. And from that arrogance and selfishness comes the whole host of mankind's sins.
not gods but like god - knowing good and evil, anyway they didn't die as God said, that's the point.
They did die as God said, and as do we all. Both an actual death, and as the beings we were created by God to be.
That's false, we all know what's good and what's bad regardless of selfish desires.
Having no knowledge of how or why creation exists, or what it even entails, we have no knowledge of what would be right or wrong within it. We just blindly presume that we do, based on what's good for us, or bad for us. And then we waste our lives trying torture the world and each other into compliance with our selfish assessments of what's "right",

Personally, of all the stories in the Bible, I think this one nails it in terms of explaining who we are and why we suffer and die.
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
I would reject the notion of such as thing as a "correct interpretation", as that suggests there is only one right meaning to be had from the texts.
Of course there is only one meaning, just because it can be interpreted in many ways (even if useful) doesn't mean all those interpretations are correct.

You can buy a car not be used to take you from point A to point B but to park it behind your house to keep chickens in it,
but this doesn't mean purpose of the car is to keep chickens in it, it's purpose is still to take people from A to B.

What you're saying here it that the purpose of a car is to keep chickens in it just because that's possible and is being done,
yes this is currently a purpose of that particular car, but what is true purpose of a car?

But there is human perceptions of truth in the Bible. Those may not be lies, per se of course, but that doesn't automatically means they are infallible perceptions, does it? I don't believe that.
That's exactly why there can't be multiple truths, since if there are multiple truths then which one is true?

The type of truth that is Wisdom or divine Truth, is esoteric of course. Those who know it, metaphorically speaking are "kings", possessing "royal knowledge".
That I could agree with, this royal knowledge must make you king, it should give you special powers.

Indeed. What do you think?
If I tell you, you would certainly die. :)
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
It matters what it represents; the "knowledge of good and evil". A knowledge that we cannot actually possess. A knowledge that, thinking we possess it, makes us imagine that we are demigods.
I'm sorry but this is plain wrong because knowledge of good and evil is not false, God said, "look man become like us, knowing good and evil" therefore God acknowledged it's not false.

They did die as God said, and as do we all. Both an actual death, and as the beings we were created by God to be.
You know there was other tree in garden of Eden, called the tree of life?
That tree if eaten from would give eternal life, Adam and Eve didn't eat from that tree because they were cast out,
therefore obviously Adam and Eve were not created to live eternal life on earth or in Eden.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm sorry but this is plain wrong because knowledge of good and evil is not false, God said, "look man become like us, knowing good and evil" therefore God acknowledged it's not false.
That same quote refers to God as an "us", so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it. These are mythical, metaphorical stories told and re-told, translated and re-translated many times.
You know there was other tree in garden of Eden, called the tree of life?
That tree if eaten from would give eternal life, Adam and Eve didn't eat from that tree because they were cast out,
therefore obviously Adam and Eve were not created to live eternal life on earth or in Eden.
How do you know what they were created for? The gift of eternal life was offered to them but they chose to condemn themselves before they could receive it. Tells me they were created for the choosing, but then chose badly.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One can understand the story as man being doomed as soon as deities entered the garden and stated giving the kids conflicting advice. They never stood a chance once those gods appeared to them. By this reckoning, the damning knowledge was that this deity existed, had unrealistic demands, and was willing to severely punish them and their posterity for their guaranteed failure to transcend being human. Imagine how much better off the kids would have been had these gods never revealed themselves and just allowed the kids to frolic in paradise. Imagine how much better off we all are if these deities don't exist. Finding out otherwise would not be good news for anybody.
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
One can understand the story as man being doomed as soon as deities entered the garden and stated giving the kids conflicting advice. They never stood a chance once those gods appeared to them. By this reckoning, the damning knowledge was that this deity existed, had unrealistic demands, and was willing to severely punish them and their posterity for their guaranteed failure to transcend being human. Imagine how much better off the kids would have been had these gods never revealed themselves and just allowed the kids to frolic in paradise. Imagine how much better off we all are if these deities don't exist. Finding out otherwise would not be good news for anybody.
Matthew 11:25
 

PureX

Veteran Member
One can understand the story as man being doomed as soon as deities entered the garden and stated giving the kids conflicting advice. They never stood a chance once those gods appeared to them. By this reckoning, the damning knowledge was that this deity existed, had unrealistic demands, and was willing to severely punish them and their posterity for their guaranteed failure to transcend being human. Imagine how much better off the kids would have been had these gods never revealed themselves and just allowed the kids to frolic in paradise. Imagine how much better off we all are if these deities don't exist. Finding out otherwise would not be good news for anybody.
I'm not sure what value there is to be gained, however, by interpreting it as cosigning one's preconceived bias, except to massage one's ego. Whereas investigating the possibilities that one has not previously considered might lead to a new perspective on the story.

And it IS a story. So there is no reason to hold any vendettas against the characters. I mean, they are just characters after all: colorful and imaginative representations of common experiences and ideas that most humans have had.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Of course there is only one meaning, just because it can be interpreted in many ways (even if useful) doesn't mean all those interpretations are correct.

You can buy a car not be used to take you from point A to point B but to park it behind your house to keep chickens in it,
but this doesn't mean purpose of the car is to keep chickens in it, it's purpose is still to take people from A to B.

What you're saying here it that the purpose of a car is to keep chickens in it just because that's possible and is being done,
yes this is currently a purpose of that particular car, but what is true purpose of a car?
I don't think you know the purpose of this story at all.

The people who created it used it very differently than you are presuming. They did not use these stories as "answers" to their big questions. They used these stories as inspiration for discussion, and debate, and even argument, because they saw their God as being inexplicable. As being beyond human understanding. And they wanted their stories to reflect that inexplicability so as to remind them that man doesn't get to have 'all the answers'. That mankind has to grapple with this inexplicable "living God". It's why they called their God the "living God"; because they had to live with it every day. And with the conundrums their God presented them on a daily basis. This wasn't a God that lived in a temple that you went to and traded offerings to for favors (like everyone else's gods at the time). This was a God of nomadic sheep-herders that was everywhere, all the time, that you couldn't get away from. And that you had to recon with in your mind and heart, constantly. And these stories were a focal point to help them do that. They weren't looking for 'answers' in them. They were looking for the stories to connect them to that inexplicable omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent "living God".
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Introductory example:
In the book of genesis God told Adam and Eve, if you eat the apple you will certainly die.
The serpent told them they won't die but their eyes will open instead.

This tells us the serpent was telling the truth since they didn't die, but I wouldn't call God a liar either
but instead there is a hidden meaning of "death", that is one has to grasp what did God mean.

In this specific case "death" is actually spiritual death:

Spiritual death in Christianity - Wikipedia

Interpretation:
P1
- The bible (a word of God) is a locked book that needs to be unlocked to know the truth, only a correct interpretation can lead to truth
P2 - The work of the devil (the serpent) is to unravel to people what was concealed by God, and this leads to spiritual death.

Additional insight gives Proverbs 25:2:

Proverbs 25:2 NABRE - It is the glory of God to conceal a - Bible Gateway

If you click on the link above you'll see a footnote which tells that "kings" are not people in this context but literary kings.
Who are kings but those who rule over ordinary people (or group of people) in one way or another?
Ordinary people like us are obviously not kings.

Thus:
P3 - Ordinary people don't know the truth

Conclusion:
Following 3 propositions are to be taken in respect to each other:

P3 - The bible tells the truth, there is no lie in the bible
P4 - The literal meaning of the bible is not truth
P5 - Knowing the truth will cause you spiritual death

Conclusion1 - Truth is esoteric (proper to kings - royal knowledge)
Conclusion2 - Seeking to know the truth is evil

What is truth?

Debate as you please.
so the tree of life and knowledge are one and the same tree at the center. the conjunction in the verse is "and".

the problem is that you can't serve god and knowledge as self-empowerment. you can't serve love and power over other as self.


so the tree of life as described in revelation 22 is a giving tree; along with the idea in

psalms 1:3

jeremiah 17:8
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
The people who created it used it very differently than you are presuming. They did not use these stories as "answers" to their big questions. They used these stories as inspiration for discussion, and debate, and even argument, because they saw their God as being inexplicable.
I think they made these stories to hide knowledge and project power based on that knowledge.
Thus the bible consist of hidden part (esoteric) and projected part (exoteric)

Projected part (exoteric) is what Christianity teaches and what makes people believe,
and hidden knowledge (esoteric) is inscripted into the bible and guarded by the church.

This is what mysticism is about and is not limited to the bible or Christianity,
in fact every religion consists of esoteric and exoteric portion, one just has to dig deeper to understand.

so the tree of life and knowledge are one and the same tree at the center.
No they are 2 different (not same) trees, the bible does not equate them.

the problem is that you can't serve god and knowledge as self-empowerment. you can't serve love and power over other as self
knowledge is power, you can use it to exploit others and your surroundings and thus empower yourself.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I think they made these stories to hide knowledge and project power based on that knowledge.
Thus the bible consist of hidden part (esoteric) and projected part (exoteric)

Projected part (exoteric) is what Christianity teaches and what makes people believe,
and hidden knowledge (esoteric) is inscripted into the bible and guarded by the church.

This is what mysticism is about and is not limited to the bible or Christianity,
in fact every religion consists of esoteric and exoteric portion, one just has to dig deeper to understand.


No they are 2 different (not same) trees, the bible does not equate them.


knowledge is power, you can use it to exploit others and your surroundings and thus empower yourself.


god created the body, the temple in which the spirit would take possession

this is exactly what revelation 22 is describing. self as the tree and the indwelling spirit. self is the city set on a hill, the light of the world.

no one secrets a light under a basket.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
One can understand the story as man being doomed as soon as deities entered the garden and stated giving the kids conflicting advice. They never stood a chance once those gods appeared to them. By this reckoning, the damning knowledge was that this deity existed, had unrealistic demands, and was willing to severely punish them and their posterity for their guaranteed failure to transcend being human. Imagine how much better off the kids would have been had these gods never revealed themselves and just allowed the kids to frolic in paradise. Imagine how much better off we all are if these deities don't exist. Finding out otherwise would not be good news for anybody.
with love comes light and with more light/understanding comes love.

the way home. home is where the heart is. love said, "Let there be light".


matthew 6:21


 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
this is exactly what revelation 22 is describing. self as the tree and the indwelling spirit. self is the city set on a hill, the light of the world.

no one secrets a light under a basket.
Who is God then according to your interpretation?
Also who is Jesus and Satan and who is Antichrist?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course there is only one meaning, just because it can be interpreted in many ways (even if useful) doesn't mean all those interpretations are correct.

You can buy a car not be used to take you from point A to point B but to park it behind your house to keep chickens in it, but this doesn't mean purpose of the car is to keep chickens in it, it's purpose is still to take people from A to B.

What you're saying here it that the purpose of a car is to keep chickens in it just because that's possible and is being done, yes this is currently a purpose of that particular car, but what is true purpose of a car?
A few things to point out here. First, if we are talking about life and nature, you are not talking about something made by a person for a primary functional use, like a designer making a car to be used as a vehicle of transportation. Nature just is what it is, and purpose and meaning is what we impose upon it from our perspectives. This is why the "Watchmaker" argument is invalid to try to prove the existence of God. A watch is made for a specific purpose, with a top-down design.

But nature is a bottom-up creation that unfolds in patterns that we find we can make use of. As we find usefulness in it, we project ourselves into it and see it as intended for that purpose. Think of it like an ape who finds a stick that allows him to dip it down into a termite mound and pull out termites to eat. "God made this stick for me so I could eat these termites". Did he?

But to the Bible question here, when you say there is a "correct interpretation", you have to assume the intent of the author, much like trying to assume the intent of nature in assigning a "correct interpretation" as to its "purpose". If anything that can be said about the intent of its various authors, it would be to say they intended to speak about how they saw God in the context of their own thoughts and feelings in the context of their worlds they lived in.

Us as readers of these texts can only speculate as to their actual thoughts and feelings. We are always going to inject our own subjective experiences into those interpretations, and as such, they are at best "correct" for us, at that moment, at that time, in that context. "I find it has this meaning to me, so therefore, that's the correct interpretation. It's what the author intended", just like like stick was made for eating termites to that ape.

No one can truly claim to have the "correct interpretation" of scripture. History proves that there are myriad ways in which people interpret these things. And here the thing. The very reason scripture endures as it has, is because it allows for those myriads understandings and interpretations in the pursuit of finding meaning! That's why the myth of Adam and Eve is so enduring. It continues to offer many points of view to find expression in its characters.

If it were to just mean one thing only, what good is that? You may as well treat the Bible as if it were an owners manual for a DVD player! :) It's anything but that.

That's exactly why there can't be multiple truths, since if there are multiple truths then which one is true?
Most of them are true. You know there are more than one way to understand things in life? The world, reality, is not a black and white affair. Someone can be both bad and good, and not stark shades of either good or bad, for instance. A binary reality, is a fictional reality of the mind.

That I could agree with, this royal knowledge must make you king, it should give you special powers.
That would be true. The power to not suffer from our own illusions of power. :)

If I tell you, you would certainly die. :)
Give it a try. I'll just reincarnate. :)
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Who is God then according to your interpretation?
Also who is Jesus and Satan and who is Antichrist?
anti-christ is anti unconditional love. christ is the advocate. satan is the accuser. where is the love? at the end of the age, people would become lovers of self and not service/love to all as self.


i'm still friendly with the monsters in my heads.


 
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paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Most of them are true. You know there are more than one way to understand things in life?
Sorry but I don't agree with your multiple truths claim, that's not how the bible "works" so to speak.

Give it a try. I'll just reincarnate. :)
I don't think you would since you support multiple truths while in fact there is only one possible truth.
See first half of my OP in another thread to see what I mean by "truth" and then come back here.

Now since you believe the bible tells many truths, I wonder how would you apply this thesis to this?
This is why I think you would not understand (or reincarnate)
 
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