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How Did Allah perfect His favour on Muslims?

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It definitely does not mean what you think.

I don't have to "think" anything. I only have to read the words. Which of those words in that verse mean something that is leading me astray? Does completed not mean finished? Does perfected not mean that it can't be made any better? Seriously, have you invented other meanings that we need to know about?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't have to "think" anything. I only have to read the words. Which of those words in that verse mean something that is leading me astray? Does completed not mean finished? Does perfected not mean that it can't be made any better? Seriously, have you invented other meanings that we need to know about?

You always have to reflect. It's probably why you don't understand this verse or much of Quran, because you don't reflect. Start thinking and reflecting and things will click.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You always have to reflect. It's probably why you don't understand this verse or much of Quran, because you don't reflect. Start thinking and reflecting and things will click.

I'm trying to decide if that was either (1) more vague or (2) more condescending or (3) more utterly meaningless.

The verdict is in - it's a 3-way tie.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm trying to decide if that was either (1) more vague or (2) more condescending or (3) more utterly meaningless.

The verdict is in - it's a 3-way tie.

You are self-projecting. You can do research on the verse and see which verses were revealed last according to hadiths, and then see what is the truth about this verse in the Surah and reflect over the Surah over all. But you won't do it. And if you get spoon fed, you repeat conjecture and just deny.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hint: It's about protection of the religion (today those who have disbelieved have despaired about your religion....).

But if you wish to spoon fed. God takes us into a time and moment when he perfected the religion. How did this happen?

Another hint: We are reminded of the children of Israel being risen twelve Navigators and Captians of the ship of salvation which by the name of God it's sailing and anchoring, through a covenant as well, but the hard hearts of children Israel broke the covenant, didn't help those Messengers, and dishonored them. They did this first by twisting words way out of their place.

Another hint: Musa and Haroun separated from their people because they could no longer "control them" and Musa didn't have authority over anyone but himself and his brother, and so while God completed the religion, he did his part, things can still go wrong.

Another hint: The books of the past were meant to be judged by but Quran still warns as the people entrusted these books went astray, not to take them as "Awliya" and in this context it means as authorities over these books and religion. Yet we see Mohammad (s) is disputed by hypocrites on grounds of some of these people of the book out of love for them and we see this not only in this Surah but others, that they would look to see what Christian and Jewish scholars said about Mohammad (s) in their books and remember that Yathrib were filled with "people of the book" who were waiting for Mohammad (s) and hence invited him in the first place to rule them, yet many didn't believe and lied about Mohammad (s) or didn't believe but pretended to. In this context and in warning believers not turn on their backs, it says "Your Wali (Authority) is only God, the Messenger, and those who secured, those who keep up Salah and give Zakat while bowing", and this was Ali (a) per hadiths when giving a ring to a poor person asking for charity while everyone was praying, it was only Ali (a) who showed his ring and gave it to him. And it's plural, and so he represents the Imams.

Another hint: "Convey what you have been revealed from your Lord...." is revealed for Imam Ali (a) at Ghadir and it doesn't make sense to say convey Quran if you didn't convey Quran, you didn't convey Quran, that makes no sense.

And the Surah itself speaks of start of Bani-Israel and end of them as far the Captains of the ship of salvation goes they had to steer them upon the right direction.

Of course, those who "disbelieve" know they can't put out God's light about Ali (a) and ahlulbayt (a) in Quran. That Welayat of chosen ones will be there in the Sunnah has Ghadeer event wrote that in history without ambiguity.

As the Sunnah is meant to safeguard the interpretation, this was a way of Mohammad (s) of keeping the religion alive forever.

Now we know there is "divisions", but Allah (swt) gave a way to unity. The umma failed, same way Bani-Israel failed, to keep to Twelve Navigators (a) after Musa (a) for them starting with Haroun (a) and ending with Isa (a).

There is still a way to unity. And the words stand as a proof and the truth is clear.

Research Ghadir event.

The last verses revealed were put in Meccan Surahs, that is, early Surahs, and the last two verses was revealed when someone said about Welayat Ali (a) "if this is the truth then bring upon me punishment". The last two verses "An asker asked about a punishment bound to come, for the disbelievers there is no one who can prevent it". Of course, he was killed by a rock dropping on him from the sky, but the over all context of it, is a warning about the Mahdi (a).

And this was put into an overall Meccan Surah, and so we see according to the truth, some Meccan verses find their way to overall Medina Surahs and some Medina verses find themselves in Meccan Surahs.

And Surah Maeda contextualizes the story of Abel and Cain, in that, Qabel (Cain) killed Abel because God accepted from Abel but not Cain.

And this is the motive of Shiites being oppressed. It's pure hate and envy. Because we hold you must accept Welayat of Imams (a) to be a believer and accepted by God, we faced severe oppression.

And you see also "anti-judgmental" people hate believers because we believe in hell for those who don't accept the clear proofs of God's religion and don't submit sincerely to God.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You are self-projecting. You can do research on the verse and see which verses were revealed last according to hadiths, and then see what is the truth about this verse in the Surah and reflect over the Surah over all. But you won't do it. And if you get spoon fed, you repeat conjecture and just deny.

Another swing and a miss. You can't even tell us what "completed" or "perfected" means, so why should I listen to anything you have to say?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another swing and a miss. You can't even tell us what "completed" or "perfected" means, so why should I listen to anything you have to say?

Allah (swt) says similar what Torah of Musa (a) was for those who guard. Yet, Haroun (a) and Anbiya (a) after Musa (A) all revealed books and were given the book as well, that was added to the "scripture" and Musa's (a) book didn't suffice.

And Musa's (a) book completing God's favor on the believers was not without Messengers and Captains and Leaders who guide by God's command after Musa (a).

Textually, they had to safeguard more scripture. So what does it mean it was perfecting the favor on believers? It means it has the truth for the community to hold on including "holding on to God's Prophets" after Musa (a) right?

Get me so far?

The way God completed religion and his favor on that day is by appointing Imam Ali (a) in a way for all generations to able to see through undoubted ghadeer event, that Ahlulbayt (a) go with Quran and Quran goes with Ahlulbayt (a) which is what Prophet (s) said, and this means the same Relationship Prophet Mohammad (s) had with umma aside from being a Nabi, Ali (a) has the same with the nation in terms of leadership, authority, guiding, being light, ultimate example, etc.

So with divine leadership of Ali (a) and his successors (a), he completed the favor on humanity when Mohammad (s) conveyed that truth. This shows the importance of the Sunnah as well, as the revelation would become not understood were it not for Mohammad's (s) "conveying" the message on the day of Ghadeer pertaining to Ali (a) and his family (a).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here is the verse about the Torah:

ثُمَّ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لَعَلَّهُمْ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | Then We gave Moses the Book, completing [Our blessing] on him who is virtuous, and as an elaboration of all things, and as a guidance and mercy, so that they may believe in the encounter with their Lord. | Al-An'aam : 154

Now completing didn't mean no more books after Torah, as Anbiya (a) after him received scripture as well.

So please, try to understand, instead of making assumptions.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Allah (swt) says similar what Torah of Musa (a) was for those who guard. Yet, Haroun (a) and Anbiya (a) after Musa (A) all revealed books and were given the book as well, that was added to the "scripture" and Musa's (a) book didn't suffice.

And Musa's (a) book completing God's favor on the believers was not without Messengers and Captains and Leaders who guide by God's command after Musa (a).

Textually, they had to safeguard more scripture. So what does it mean it was perfecting the favor on believers? It means it has the truth for the community to hold on including "holding on to God's Prophets" after Musa (a) right?

Get me so far?

The way God completed religion and his favor on that day is by appointing Imam Ali (a) in a way for all generations to able to see through undoubted ghadeer event, that Ahlulbayt (a) go with Quran and Quran goes with Ahlulbayt (a) which is what Prophet (s) said, and this means the same Relationship Prophet Mohammad (s) had with umma aside from being a Nabi, Ali (a) has the same with the nation in terms of leadership, authority, guiding, being light, ultimate example, etc.

So with divine leadership of Ali (a) and his successors (a), he completed the favor on humanity when Mohammad (s) conveyed that truth. This shows the importance of the Sunnah as well, as the revelation would become not understood were it not for Mohammad's (s) "conveying" the message on the day of Ghadeer pertaining to Ali (a) and his family (a).

And off we go to Shia La-La Land. Just the fact that you can read Ali into that proves yet again that Allah failed miserably in his attempt to communicate.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
That's your understanding of it.
That is the meaning of the words used.
Of course, I understand that attempting to redefine words is a common tactic when apologists run into difficulties. ;)
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You always have to reflect. It's probably why you don't understand this verse or much of Quran, because you don't reflect. Start thinking and reflecting and things will click.
You do realise that "reflect on" just means "think about".
When a rational person "thinks about" that passage, they come to the conclusion that Allah is saying that he has perfected and completed Islam - not that Islam is not yet finished and will require additional tweaks and additions.
But then, the apologist attempting to reconcile contradictions and inconsistencies in scripture is rarely thinking rationally.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You do realise that "reflect on" just means "think about".
When a rational person "thinks about" that passage, they come to the conclusion that Allah is saying that he has perfected and completed Islam - not that Islam is not yet finished and will require additional tweaks and additions.
But then, the apologist attempting to reconcile contradictions and inconsistencies in scripture is rarely thinking rationally.
Salam

Yet I've shown similar words were used for Book of Musa (a) without all your implications since there books revealed after him by his successors.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Salam

Yet I've shown similar words were used for Book of Musa (a) without all your implications since there books revealed after him by his successors.
You never "show" anything. You just make a load of unsupported and nonsensical assertions.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You never "show" anything. You just make a load of unsupported and nonsensical assertions.

ثُمَّ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لَعَلَّهُمْ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | Then We gave Moses the Book, completing [Our blessing] on him who is virtuous, and as an elaboration of all things, and as a guidance and mercy, so that they may believe in the encounter with their Lord. | Al-An'aam : 154

Uses same word different prose, but same root word.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And off we go to Shia La-La Land. Just the fact that you can read Ali into that proves yet again that Allah failed miserably in his attempt to communicate.
Ali (a) is called to eloquently in Quran in a way humans can't remind of and fail to appreciate and can't reveal.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
ثُمَّ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لَعَلَّهُمْ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | Then We gave Moses the Book, completing [Our blessing] on him who is virtuous, and as an elaboration of all things, and as a guidance and mercy, so that they may believe in the encounter with their Lord. | Al-An'aam : 154

Uses same word different prose, but same root word.
Different context. Allah is talking about his blessing on Moses, not Islam itself. And misses out "perfected".
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Different context. Allah is talking about his blessing on Moses, not Islam itself. And misses out "perfected".

Well at least you admit "completing" can mean different things in different contexts. What context is the phrase of completing the religion revealed and how do you know?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

Here is a hadith about this:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَالْفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَبُكَيْرِ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ وَمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ وَبُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ وَأَبِي الْجَارُودِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ ابي جعفر (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ أَمَرَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ رَسُولَهُ بِوَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَأَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ الله وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَفَرَضَ وَلايَةَ أُولِي الامْرِ فَلَمْ يَدْرُوا مَا هِيَ فَأَمَرَ الله مُحَمَّداً (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) أَنْ يُفَسِّرَ لَهُمُ الْوَلايَةَ كَمَا فَسَّرَ لَهُمُ الصَّلاةَ وَالزَّكَاةَ وَالصَّوْمَ وَالْحَجَّ فَلَمَّا أَتَاهُ ذَلِكَ مِنَ الله ضَاقَ بِذَلِكَ صَدْرُ رَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَتَخَوَّفَ أَنْ يَرْتَدُّوا عَنْ دِينِهِمْ وَأَنْ يُكَذِّبُوهُ فَضَاقَ صَدْرُهُ وَرَاجَعَ رَبَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ فَأَوْحَى الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِلَيْهِ يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ ما أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَما بَلَّغْتَ رِسالَتَهُ وَالله يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَصَدَعَ بِأَمْرِ الله تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ فَقَامَ بِوَلايَةِ علي (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَنَادَى الصَّلاةَ جَامِعَةً وَأَمَرَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُبَلِّغَ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِبَ قَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ أُذَيْنَةَ قَالُوا جَمِيعاً غَيْرَ أَبِي الْجَارُودِ وَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) وَكَانَتِ الْفَرِيضَةُ تَنْزِلُ بَعْدَ الْفَرِيضَةِ الاخْرَى وَكَانَتِ الْوَلايَةُ آخِرَ الْفَرَائِضِ فَأَنْزَلَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لا أُنْزِلُ عَلَيْكُمْ بَعْدَ هَذِهِ فَرِيضَةً قَدْ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمُ الْفَرَائِضَ

that Abu Ja’far (p.b.u.h.) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, charged His Messenger with the Mastership of Ali, and sent down to him: Your Master is only Allah, and His Messenger and those who secured, those who perform the prayer and pay zakat while bowing. He decreed the Mastership of those in authority, although they (the people) did not understand what it was. Allah command Muhammad (p.b.u.h.a.h.p.) to interpret (and explain) Mastership for them as he had interpreted (and explained) prayer, zakat, fasting and hajj. When this came to him from Allah, the mind of the Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.ah.p.) became straitened by it and he became afraid lest they (the people) abandon their religion and come to deny it. So his mind was straitened and he consulted with his Lord, to Whom belong Might and Majesty; and Allah to Whom belong Might and Majesty revealed to him: O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to thee from thy Lord; for if thou cost not, thou wig not have delivered His Message. Allah will protect thee from men (al-Ma’idah, 5:67). He complied with the command of Allah, may remembrance of Him be exlated, and endorsed the Mastership of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khumm. He convened the communal prayer, and he commanded the people that those who were witnesses should inform those who were absent.”—’Umar ibn Udhaynah said: `Ali but Abu’l-Jarudsaid: ’Abu Ja’far (p.b.uh.) said: “One divine precept came down after another, and the Mastership was the last divine ordinance. And Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, sent down: Today I have completed your religion for you, and I have perfected My blessing upon you ( al-Matidah, 5 :3 ).” Abu Ja’ far (p.b.uh. ) said: “Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, said: ’I shall not send down (any ordinance) to you after this ordinance: I have completed the divine ordinances for you.’

Ref Al-Kafi

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (250/ 3)
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Well at least you admit "completing" can mean different things in different contexts.
No I didn't. It means to finish, conclude. Anything following it means it was not completed.
As I explained, the context of god completing, finishing, concluding his blessing on Moses does not affect the context of god completing, finishing, concluding Islam many centuries later.

What context is the phrase of completing the religion revealed and how do you know?
It means that on that day, Allah had completed (finished, concluded) Islam and perfected it (it cannot be improved in any way, so nothing can be added). We know this because Allah said it in the Quran.
Therefore everything that was revealed after that verse either must be rejected or contradicts Allah. Both of which shoe the Quran to be flawed, which by its own standard, proves it is not from god.
QED.
 
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