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Why God allows Evil

Viker

Häxan
So, God sits back idly watching people torture and murder, when he could stop evil but chooses to be nice to everyone? This God seems like an apathetic and "uninvolved" neighbor. You know the one? When Leatherface is dismembering someone the neighbor just minds his own business, doesn't even bother calling the cops. Maybe he'll give a vague description later if the police show up to his door.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If this is the case then I see no point in this God...

Anyway... question 3. Is there free will in heaven?

I am not able to give a satisfactory answer about Heaven, because it surely deals with another dimension.
Free will is something worldly that makes sense within human experience.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That is why I pointed out that God does not have that ability. Men do.
Because if He did that, He would violate people's free will.

There are so many examples of Yahweh acting out because people did something that upset him.
In Habakkuk 3 he smashes mountains and grew horns out of his hands to kill everyone who bothered Habakkuk. Sending Satan to kill 70,000 for a petty reason completely dismantles what you are saying.

Those people also had free will.
Then in the NT he comes down as his demigod son and does all kinds of things to ease suffering?

What do you mean by party of good and party of Satan? Or it is Satan who wants to do evil?
Yahweh sent Satan to kill 70,000 people? TWICE?? He sent him to do all sorts of evil? Satan worked for Yahweh?

In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[16] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[16] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan".[16]

Some passages clearly refer to the satan, without using the word itself.[17] 1 Samuel 2:12 describes the sons of Eli as "sons of Belial";[18] the later usage of this word makes it clearly a synonym for "satan".[18] In 1 Samuel 16:14–23 Yahweh sends a "troubling spirit" to torment King Saul as a mechanism to ingratiate David with the king.[19] In 1 Kings 22:19–25, the prophet Micaiah describes to King Ahab a vision of Yahweh sitting on his throne surrounded by the Host of Heaven.[18] Yahweh asks the Host which of them will lead Ahab astray.[18] A "spirit", whose name is not specified, but who is analogous to the satan, volunteers to be "a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets".[18]
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm looking at it from the point of common decency. The lack of free will for the child was to be my next point.

Meep...

I meant to quote @Estro Felino, not you. Stupid posting while on the train.

Sorry on the confusion mate. I meant it seems like Estro is looking from the point of view of the adult. Apologies on the confusion.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a very interesting point. Nevertheless it is not an universal rule. Because we have cases of abused children who turned out to be great people, despite everything.

It doesn't need to be a universal rule to cause a problem with your hypothesis though.

I guess basics first. Is the God you're talking about in this scenario both omnipotent and omnibenevolent? Or not?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why does He allow evil?
That is the mantra that several, not to say many, atheists usually point out, whenever they want to underline the Christian doctrine contradictions.

Why does He do that? Because He is not a dictator.
God's Order is not any different than politics.
There is the party of Good, led by Jesus. And there is the party of evil, led by Satan.

There are Jesus' servants and there are Lucifer's servants. They belong to two different parties.
As Matthew 13,49 says, the wicked and the just. The first fight for the sake of good, the second for the sake of evil.
So if He were a dictator, He would prevent evil people from having a say.
He would prevent them from joining "politics". From doing evil.

He does not do that because
1) He is not a dictator
2) He respects people's free will
3) He hopes they can choose the party of Good by themselves


It is Satan that would like to be a dictator by killing all the good people, and ruling Earth with his wicked politicians .
But he is not allowed to do that. He is forced to respect democracy, as God does.
My argument along these lines would be somewhat different. (The argument attributed to Epicurus said it long before I did, of course.)

Why would God sit on [his] omnipotent hands and watch an innocent child drown? No one's free will is involved, and any moral and able person would do what they could to prevent it.

Except, as shown by endless examples, God.

Is that because God is not moral?

Is that because God is not able?

Or is that because [he] exists only as a concept or thing imagined?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I am not able to give a satisfactory answer about Heaven, because it surely deals with another dimension.
Free will is something worldly that makes sense within human experience.

Ok fair enough answer, any answer would be a guess but I see it as a question that is problematic for your OP. If free will exists in heaven it will be no better than earth, if it doesn't exist in heaven then it's a bunch of God controlled robots.

And if free will is something worldly does that mean the angels are worldly? If they not then Satan would be controlled by God and therefore ultimately responsible for the evil on earth.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
There are so many examples of Yahweh acting out because people did something that upset him.
In Habakkuk 3 he smashes mountains and grew horns out of his hands to kill everyone who bothered Habakkuk. Sending Satan to kill 70,000 for a petty reason completely dismantles what you are saying.

Those people also had free will.
Then in the NT he comes down as his demigod son and does all kinds of things to ease suffering?

What do you mean by party of good and party of Satan? Or it is Satan who wants to do evil?
Yahweh sent Satan to kill 70,000 people? TWICE?? He sent him to do all sorts of evil? Satan worked for Yahweh?

In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[16] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[16] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan".[16]

Some passages clearly refer to the satan, without using the word itself.[17] 1 Samuel 2:12 describes the sons of Eli as "sons of Belial";[18] the later usage of this word makes it clearly a synonym for "satan".[18] In 1 Samuel 16:14–23 Yahweh sends a "troubling spirit" to torment King Saul as a mechanism to ingratiate David with the king.[19] In 1 Kings 22:19–25, the prophet Micaiah describes to King Ahab a vision of Yahweh sitting on his throne surrounded by the Host of Heaven.[18] Yahweh asks the Host which of them will lead Ahab astray.[18] A "spirit", whose name is not specified, but who is analogous to the satan, volunteers to be "a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets".[18]

Theologians nowadays affirm that most of the Ancient Testament is allegorical.
Otherwise we should believe that Earth was created in seven days.
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
I doubt that's any comfort to the abused children in the world.
God has set up leaders and judges to deal with earthly matters, therefore parents of a tortured child should consult police rather than God,
what you're saying is that God should come to earth with a whip and beat anyone who does evil and take free will from everybody, that would be certainly an evil god.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Ok fair enough answer, any answer would be a guess but I see it as a question that is problematic for your OP. If free will exists in heaven it will be no better than earth, if it doesn't exist in heaven then it's a bunch of God controlled robots.

And if free will is something worldly does that mean the angels are worldly? If they not then Satan would be controlled by God and therefore ultimately responsible for the evil on earth.

Angels do have free will, like humans
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It doesn't need to be a universal rule to cause a problem with your hypothesis though.

I guess basics first. Is the God you're talking about in this scenario both omnipotent and omnibenevolent? Or not?

He cannot violate people's free will.
So ... definitely not omnipotent.

But He surely can do all the things that do not violate people's free will.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
My argument along these lines would be somewhat different. (The argument attributed to Epicurus said it long before I did, of course.)

Why would God sit on [his] omnipotent hands and watch an innocent child drown? No one's free will is involved, and any moral and able person would do what they could to prevent it.

Except, as shown by endless examples, God.

Is that because God is not moral?

Is that because God is not able?

Or is that because [he] exists only as a concept or thing imagined?

I guess many people would want to live forever.
Why doesn't God give them immortality?
That's the same kind of reasoning.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
God has set up leaders and judges to deal with earthly matters, therefore parents of a tortured child should consult police rather than God,

Then God is doing a lousy job considering the errors made by leaders throughout history. I have to wonder why he set up Hitler.

what you're saying is that God should come to earth with a whip and beat anyone who does evil and take free will from everybody, that would be certainly an evil god.

Not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that evil (and I'm talking real evil) is strong evidence that a loving God does not exist.
 
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