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Suffering

joe1776

Well-Known Member
p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
Paul Bloom Quotes

We humans have been making moral progress
Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
joe1776 Good to meet you...
Love is giving of self, it is letting go of self for another person!
Giving Alms. Is letting go of you treasure.!
Giving Prayer is letting go of your time!
Giving your Talents is helping other in ways they can't!
These three are a form of suffering because it is done with love!

To give your life for another person is the ultimate form of suffering! Jesus gave himself completely.. He let go of his life his soul and his divinity!
Jesus gave himself so completely that he wants us to Eat his flesh the wants to be completely consumed because he has Perfect Love!
God is perfect; God is Love!
God gave us free will because God made us in his image... God is LOVE! To "Love" you must have free Will! ONLY...

joe1776
only man can love: Pigs, Snails, Chicken, Sheep Cows etc cannot love! To love you MUST FREELY give of self if you are forced to Give of yourself then your love would not be true love!

Free Will means there will be some men who decide FREELY NOT to love!
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
Paul Bloom Quotes

We humans have been making moral progress
Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress

Interesting concept. Makes we wonder why this creator god chose to use suffering to teach people instead of reward. The carrot is often more effective that the stick, and in my opinion is a more moral method to use. Children in a classroom tend to learn better when they are made to feel good about giving the right answer instead of being made to feel bad about giving the wrong answer.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
Paul Bloom Quotes

We humans have been making moral progress
Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress

Creators or not. Suffering is a way to let us know we are doing something wrong, or some part of us needs addressing.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
Paul Bloom Quotes

We humans have been making moral progress
Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress

If the intent is to motivate good behavior, then why isn't good behavior able to supersede the outcomes of bad behavior?

For example, if someone can chop off your arm just for fun (I take it you would agree that would be bad behavior), why isn't any good behavior able to replace it?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
Paul Bloom Quotes

We humans have been making moral progress
Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress
That is simply god-awful.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Interesting concept. Makes we wonder why this creator god chose to use suffering to teach people instead of reward. The carrot is often more effective that the stick, and in my opinion is a more moral method to use. Children in a classroom tend to learn better when they are made to feel good about giving the right answer instead of being made to feel bad about giving the wrong answer.
My argument dealt only with suffering, however conscience deals in both reward and punishment. We feel guilt when we have treated someone badly and when we have treated them with unusual kindness, we feel good about it.

Reward alone can be effective Punishment alone can be effective. But together they are very powerful. That's why the Christian offer of Heaven for believers and Hell for non-believers works so well.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
In the case of chronic conditions fwiw, it may be unaddressable, but it still lets you know what's wrong.

Actually, it doesn't even let you know what's wrong. Just that something's wrong. Whether there is anything that can be done about it...
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
If the intent is to motivate good behavior, then why isn't good behavior able to supersede the outcomes of bad behavior?

For example, if someone can chop off your arm just for fun (I take it you would agree that would be bad behavior), why isn't any good behavior able to replace it?
I have no idea. Your question goes beyond the limits of my argument.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
But you are unable to say how my reasoning is circular or to identify those leaps of faith?

I am able. First, your conclusion assumes there is a God. Second your first premise assumes there is a God. Circular.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I have no idea. Your question goes beyond the limits of my argument.

Then I reject your conclusion. If the entire purpose of suffering is to motivate good behavior but suffering can't be overcome with good behavior then it follows that suffering has some other role (or maybe no role).
 
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