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Baha'i faith is not blind faith.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you. .. Ere long, will God, with the Hand of Power, strip them of their possessions, and divest them of the robe of His bounty. To this they themselves shall soon witness."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 208

"The gates of Hell have opened wide to receive thee, O thou who hast turned away from thy Lord, the Unconstrained! Repair unto its fire, for it yearneth after thee."
Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 178

"They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!"
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 284

"Likewise apprehend thou the nature of hell-fire and be of them that truly believe."
Baha'u'llah, Suriy-i-Vafa

".. if thou remainest, at the moment of death, a disbeliever in the signs of thy Lord thou shalt surely enter the gates of hell, .."
The Báb, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 19

These quotes indicate that Bahais have a normal hell with hellfire.

Your history of the Modus Operandi of selective citations to justify a biased agenda without knowledge of the subject does not provide a coherent argument. In fact, it reflects badly on you as usual in the past in our dialogues.

Random selective Google searches are not a competent way of constructive dialogue.

Hell on earth is a reality we live with described in your references,

Nonetheless . .

Baháʼí Faith on life after death - Wikipedia..

Heaven is a soul being close to God, not a place but a condition, as it undergoes an eternal spiritual evolution.[4] Anyone who learns and applies virtues and guidance of God "goes to" heaven. Hell is similarly being far from God, not a place, but of failing to understand and apply virtues and guidance from God. Progress from even the worst condition is possible even in the next world but not until the individual fundamentally overcomes rejecting Godly virtues. Labels we call ourselves by and theologies we claim to adhere to are not as important as the reality of spiritual virtues like courage, justice, love, understanding, etc., actually expressed by choice in our lives.[4][5] Development of the spiritual life reaches a milestone whether in this life or the next in developing the "spirit of faith"[1] a gift of the Holy Spirit, which then continues to grow in the individual's soul. But if our ability to express Godly virtues is conditional so is our condition in the afterlife - there is a spectrum of achievement so a purgatory-like environment is possible for those who have not well embraced Godly virtues and those that have not largely rejected them. Indeed, the next world's life is sometimes delineated in stages.[6][7] Baháʼís believe a significant purpose of revelation is to guide the spiritual development of the individual and that accepting the prophet of God is important as a significant chance at advancing the conditional achievement of discovering the virtues themselves and expressing them.[4] If one succeeds in achieving these to a superlative degree then that person will be of benefit to all mankind from the afterlife[4] while those who are far from God have no power to affect the living any more.[1][8][9] Indeed, evil is not viewed as a power in the next world - people who are evil are described as "atrophied" and "enfeebled"[10] and that accounts of "possession" are about people who have yielded to their own darker passions and baser nature.[9]
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I've given you my source, so there is no question about what I base it on.

. . .and I responded. Your biased selective reference did not reflect the whole history and details of the polls.

This response failed to address my previous post and references.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Arn't you glad that Christianity does not want you to die, simply because you aren't one?
That's something to consider the next time someone tries to tell you that Islam is similar to Christianity.
They do, they just believe it will happen at some future apocalyptic event instead of now. They used to use the same argument Islam did for killing non-believers. But it wasn't the wisdom of Christianity which made them stop, it was the prudence of fighting against theocratic rule and protecting a secular governance.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I gave evidence. This quote from 1 Peter 3:15,

“But in your hearts, revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect…”
For many people in the US, this isn't a quote to encourage education and acceptance for a myriad beliefs, but instructions on how to best proselytize and make new converts.

For every quote about learning and research, there's 10 lambasting non-believers as fools, to not associate meaningfully with them, to not be a part of their world.

And there are many Christians who take that to heart in a way you probably aren't used to seeing but doesn't change our very real experience of trauma from religious people.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
For many people in the US, this isn't a quote to encourage education and acceptance for a myriad beliefs, but instructions on how to best proselytize and make new converts.

For every quote about learning and research, there's 10 lambasting non-believers as fools, to not associate meaningfully with them, to not be a part of their world.

And there are many Christians who take that to heart in a way you probably aren't used to seeing but doesn't change our very real experience of trauma from religious people.
I've never seen that verse interpreted that way. That's odd.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It does seem very fundie, indeed. I was nominally Anglican.
It is. And don't get me wrong, it's not an excuse to treat Christians as a monolith. But there has to be a balance between non-believers understanding Christians don't need to take the Bible literally to be Christians and believers understanding that our lived experience of fundamentalist overreach still very much effects our lives.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You are quoting Wikipedia and writings of John WS. Hatcher (4) and Farnaz Masaumian (5). I am quoting the words of Bahaollah and Bab themselves.

Wrong!!! The reference is specific and accurate concerning the Baha'i view of Heaven and Hell. Your selective bias is glaringly apparent.

Hell nor Heaven are not literal places. The references provided by you describe the attributes of Heaven and Hell, no problem.

There are reference in the Baha'i writings of journey's through many spiritual worlds beyond ours. The spiritual attributes acquired in this world guide us in the journey through apiritual worlds beyond our physical world.

As our present state on earth what you describe is an excellent description of the Hell here on earth,

Heaven and Hell: A Baha'i Perspective

‘Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?’… The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self. –
Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 132.

All Will Meet God… Eventually

The Baha’i teachings reassure everyone that we all will progress toward God in the next life:

Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 155-156.

What Will We Do In Heaven?

We will all have useful service to perform in the next existence:

Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work… is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call “time and place.” – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 96.

What About Meeting Those We Knew?

The Baha’i teachings say we will “find all the friends of God, both those of the former and recent times, present in the heavenly assemblage.” In the near-death experience we find many accounts of those who pass over, meeting relatives and other loved ones on the other side. Abdu’l-Baha assures us that we can welcome death:

At first it is very difficult to welcome death, but after attaining its new condition the soul is grateful, for it has been released from the bondage of the limited to enjoy the liberties of the unlimited. It has been freed from a world of sorrow, grief and trials to live in a world of unending bliss and joy. The phenomenal and physical have been abandoned in order that it may attain the opportunities of the ideal and spiritual. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 48.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
. . .and I responded. Your biased selective reference did not reflect the whole history and details of the polls.

This response failed to address my previous post and references.
It wasn't a biased reference. It was a recent Gallup poll. Gallup is a respected polling organisation and I see you also relied on it for a reference in response. So what's with this "bias" stuff?

I was responding to your first post in this thread. Your subsequent posts included another Gallup poll and a magazine article that didn't seem to address the same question, so I have not taken it into account.

I don't understand your apparent hostility - unless it's something to do with you being Baha'i with a point to prove. I'm just interested in getting to what proportion of US Christians are truly biblical literalists and what the trend is.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
No, I don't. I'm open to correction.

Though, I picked up the impression I had from other Baha'is here, who hint that hell is simply separation from God.

JG. Some might take this in a demeaning manner, but don't understand the Bahai theology from the Bahai's in this forum. Initial queries are fine, but nothing deeper.

Anyway, the most basic Bahai theology is that the entire Bible, the Qur'an, and some of the Bahai writings were all inspired by God. They also have a slinging faith that there were 12 imam's or spiritual leaders like the Pope who spoke "For God".

Thus, if there is a heaven and hell concept in the Bible or the Qur'an, the Bahai faith by default believes in them. Also, Bahaullah's own writing speaks of hell. Also mind you, it directly repeats "ajjahama" which means "The fires in hell".

I am not demeaning their faith. Just stating facts about the Bahai theology.

Peace.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The principles of the Teachings of Baha’u’llah should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart — so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization…. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 22.

Independent Investigation of Truth

The teaching say, a baha'i should investigate deeply until understood by heart and mind, that means there is no blind faith nor a "read the scripture and blindly believe what you read"
I trump your Abdulbaha quote with a conflicting one from Bahaullah himself...
"It is incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it."
This clearly prescribes blind adherence to dogma, even if it seems nonsensical.

I guess you're back to cherry picking. Which one do you prefer?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Unfortunatly many people seem to think all religions are blindly followed without asking questions, and in discussion, i seen this been the case when some people look at Baha'i faith too
Not all followers of all religions. That is just a shabby straw man.
However, some certainly do, and there is scripture to support their behaviour (see above).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
A Baha'i must always investigate even in to science to be able slowly but surely so that their understanding getting closer and closer to the teaching. If a person say as an example. But Baha'u'llah say you must believe this, so you must only believe that, then they have not investigated the other P.O.V that is within the teaching.
But Bahaullah himself said that you must follow god's pronouncements, even if they make no sense and contradict what is existing, factual knowledge, and you must have no doubt.
That is the definition of "blind faith".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Everyone has reasons for their faith; some honest, some not. The honest one's point to their evidences sometimes. The honest one's I see rely on proof that convinces them to have faith.
Such as?

It's really a disservice to language to use the word faith to mean having confidence towards someone or something without proof nor evidence. I see some non believers twist words to suit their liking. For me faith means to have confidence and assurance based on proof and/or evidence.
Tell that to the OED!

"Faith: Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."
 
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