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A way forwarded (Obergefell)

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
You mean how racial segregation was ended? What was so atrocious about that? Why should anyone care about those who object? Catering to their feelings and expectations needlessly infringes upon the life and liberty of others.

Yes, it is wrong to discriminate. It's not hard to understand this. And the mental anguish a man of a man upset he is underneath a woman? Why should anyone care about his hurt feelings? Catering to his expectations infringes upon the life and rights of another.
Why should anyone care about those who disagree with your plans to make the world a better place? Because they are still people. And those trying to force it cause great pain.
iu
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I freely admit I'm not the brightest bulb on the marquee, so I don't see how Roe is in any way similar to Obergefell. IIRC Roe was largely decided on a right to privacy issue, which the Constitution does not guarantee. Obergefell was decided largely on the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause.

The federal government does not have the power to alter what a thing is beyond those items listed in Article one.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Why should anyone care about those who disagree with your plans to make the world a better place? Because they are still people. And those trying to force it cause great pain.
They are people, true. But they have their rights. They can man up, get over themselves, and share those rights with others.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
They are people, true. But they have their rights. They can man up, get over themselves, and share those rights with others.

so is short bow the knee to you over what they honestly think God wants. Sure glad we have religious liberty in the constitution.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I don’t have any stats on the exact number.

I dispute the ever bit given the history of religious intolerance, but no act of terrorism is acceptable.
I agree. But you are the one saying that American Christians can be compared with Jews in Nazi Germany. By your logic, almost every demographic in America has it significantly worse than Jews in Nazi Germany, because Christians are (by FAR) one of - if not THE - most powerful and privileged groups in America. The very fact that you view equal rights legislation as an attack on Christians, because it limits Christian businesses ability to specifically deny service to marginalized groups that they don't like, proves this. The opportunity for nuance left the discussion the moment you made that comparison.

It seems that you continue to dismiss the human rights of the groups you dismiss and being less valuable.
I have never once dismissed anybody's human rights. That is a lie.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Your calling me a liar and insisting that I’m opposed to equal rights when that’s what I’m advocating. Any other far fetched ideas or insults you wish to fling?
It's not an insult. These are facts. The things you are saying about me are demonstrably untrue, and you are demonstrably not advocating for equal rights - because equal rights includes the right to not be discriminated against unjustly by businesses. You believe marginalized groups should have less protection by law than Christians should. That is the basis of your entire argument, and you have been willing to fabricate nonsense to support this idea, such as asserting without basis that this law has lead to an increase in poverty among Christians. This is nonsense, and you know it.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Loss of business or threat of often results in hunger and homelessness
So you have no actual evidence of even a single person going homeless or hungry as a result of this law whatsoever. You just saw that SOME businesses were negatively affected, and that's your justification for making an emotional appeal by claiming that such people have been reduced to poverty.

You need to ditch the emotional manipulation. As I said before, it is beneath you, and it is very clearly and obviously based on falsehoods.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
so is short bow the knee to you over what they honestly think God wants. Sure glad we have religious liberty in the constitution.
Got nothing to do with what they honestly think God wants. They can think, believe and practice what they want. They just can't use a business, operating under the law, to force their beliefs on others.

The right to use your business to unjustly discriminate against other groups is not covered in the constitution. You are more than welcome to read it. Religious liberty entitles you to free PRIVATE exercise of religion. It does not entitle you to exemption from equal rights law when operating a BUSINESS.

Please, be straight with me. If you are having difficulty understanding this, I would be happy to explain the difference.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I agree. But you are the one saying that American Christians can be compared with Jews in Nazi Germany. By your logic, almost every demographic in America has it significantly worse than Jews in Nazi Germany, because Christians are (by FAR) one of - if not THE - most powerful and privileged groups in America. The very fact that you view equal rights legislation as an attack on Christians, because it limits Christian businesses ability to specifically deny service to marginalized groups that they don't like, proves this. The opportunity for nuance left the discussion the moment you made that comparison.


I have never once dismissed anybody's human rights. That is a lie.

1. American Christians are several step behind the ruling elites and movie stars. So I'm not sure how you are assigning demographics. I'm not arguing that the mistreatment is at the same intensity of that suffered by the Jews, but the catch phrases, justifications etc. are very much in line.

2. It not just Christians. The laws make illegal people right of conscious in how they conduct business.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
It's not an insult. These are facts. The things you are saying about me are demonstrably untrue, and you are demonstrably not advocating for equal rights - because equal rights includes the right to not be discriminated against unjustly by businesses. You believe marginalized groups should have less protection by law than Christians should. That is the basis of your entire argument, and you have been willing to fabricate nonsense to support this idea, such as asserting without basis that this law has lead to an increase in poverty among Christians. This is nonsense, and you know it.

That's your view of an equal right. I'm arguing that everyone should have the same rights an that includes the right to decide to not do something that they find morally objectionable. How is that unequal?

I have NEVER argued that groups have fewer rights than Christians. I have shared several examples of government attacks on people's livelihoods. You are denying their rights and denying the facts. That does not mean I lied.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
So you have no actual evidence of even a single person going homeless or hungry as a result of this law whatsoever. You just saw that SOME businesses were negatively affected, and that's your justification for making an emotional appeal by claiming that such people have been reduced to poverty.

You need to ditch the emotional manipulation. As I said before, it is beneath you, and it is very clearly and obviously based on falsehoods.
You keep calling my a lair instead of dealing with the reality that you support a system of oppression. Is that not "beneath you"?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Got nothing to do with what they honestly think God wants. They can think, believe and practice what they want. They just can't use a business, operating under the law, to force their beliefs on others.

The right to use your business to unjustly discriminate against other groups is not covered in the constitution. You are more than welcome to read it. Religious liberty entitles you to free PRIVATE exercise of religion. It does not entitle you to exemption from equal rights law when operating a BUSINESS.

Please, be straight with me. If you are having difficulty understanding this, I would be happy to explain the difference.
This is where the first amendment is needed. You seem to think that if a belief crosses a line you want imposed their beliefs don't matter.

I'm sorry were is declining to do what someone things is morally objectionable "forcing their beliefs on others" You've been advocating for the wide use of government force to deny religious liberty in the public square. I saw that's wrong and you are saying that's the business forcing their beliefs. And to top that off you called ME a lair????
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
1. American Christians are several step behind the ruling elites and movie stars. So I'm not sure how you are assigning demographics. I'm not arguing that the mistreatment is at the same intensity of that suffered by the Jews, but the catch phrases, justifications etc. are very much in line.
Once again, this is ridiculous. This like saying millionaires are oppressed because they are not treated as well as billionaires. If the only way you can make yourself feel disadvantaged is to compare to social social status to MOVIE STARS, then you might want to reconsider your perspective.

2. It not just Christians. The laws make illegal people right of conscious in how they conduct business.
So you admit now that the laws are NOT maliciously targeted at Christians specifically, then?

Make up your mind.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
That's your view of an equal right. I'm arguing that everyone should have the same rights an that includes the right to decide to not do something that they find morally objectionable. How is that unequal?
Because that right is still in tact. Nobody is being forced to do anything they don't want to BEYOND the bounds of legal business practice. Again, your rights do not include your right to conduct business in such a way as to disadvantage people based on protected characteristics. You continually obfuscate this issue when it is really very simple. You are saying that businesses should have the right to discriminate against people based on whatever criteria they want. That will undeniably harm marginalized groups and undeniably empower hegemonic powers (like Christianity). What you are advocating for is inequality.

I have NEVER argued that groups have fewer rights than Christians.
Yes you are. You are arguing that the religious beliefs of Christians entitle them to ignore equal rights laws, and advocate for the overturning of those laws specifically because it hinders Christians in their ability to do so.

I have shared several examples of government attacks on people's livelihoods. You are denying their rights and denying the facts. That does not mean I lied.
You are continuing to lie. There is no infringement of people's rights. Nobody has a right to conduct business in a way that unfairly discriminated against people. That's not and never has been a thing.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You keep calling my a lair instead of dealing with the reality that you support a system of oppression. Is that not "beneath you"?
I have repeatedly explained where you have lied and you have failed to rebuke this claim. And I have also repeatedly explained how you are the one who is advocating for oppression. You, meanwhile, have shown a complete lack of understanding of law, the constitution and what freedom of religion actually entitles people to. Your claims here are just empty.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Once again, this is ridiculous. This like saying millionaires are oppressed because they are not treated as well as billionaires. If the only way you can make yourself feel disadvantaged is to compare to social social status to MOVIE STARS, then you might want to reconsider your perspective.


So you admit now that the laws are NOT maliciously targeted at Christians specifically, then?

Make up your mind.

When did so say it was targeting only Christians? They were the go to examples when you asked for evidence.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Because that right is still in tact. Nobody is being forced to do anything they don't want to BEYOND the bounds of legal business practice. Again, your rights do not include your right to conduct business in such a way as to disadvantage people based on protected characteristics. You continually obfuscate this issue when it is really very simple. You are saying that businesses should have the right to discriminate against people based on whatever criteria they want. That will undeniably harm marginalized groups and undeniably empower hegemonic powers (like Christianity). What you are advocating for is inequality.


Yes you are. You are arguing that the religious beliefs of Christians entitle them to ignore equal rights laws, and advocate for the overturning of those laws specifically because it hinders Christians in their ability to do so.


You are continuing to lie. There is no infringement of people's rights. Nobody has a right to conduct business in a way that unfairly discriminated against people. That's not and never has been a thing.

You keep denying the rights of liberty and insulting me so. I’m going to not waste any more of my time.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
This is where the first amendment is needed. You seem to think that if a belief crosses a line you want imposed their beliefs don't matter.
This is a very bizarre characterisation of my position, despite my repeated attempts at explaining it. Again, you need to read my posts more carefully.

People are entitled to BELIEVE whatever they want. But that does not entitle them to use that belief as justification for using a BUSINESS to force that belief on others or deny equal treatment to groups on unjust terms.

I'm sorry were is declining to do what someone things is morally objectionable "forcing their beliefs on others"
It is. By definition, if you are someone who believes, for example, that interracial marriage is wrong, and you operate a business which plays a role in facilitating marriages, to deny that service to an interracial couple based purely on your personal belief is forcing that belief on them. You are essentially denying them their rights based on your personal belief.

You've been advocating for the wide use of government force to deny religious liberty in the public square.
Nope. That's yet another lie. I have very explicitly been talking about USING BUSINESS as a means to unfairly treat others. Religious liberty does not extend to public businesses.

I saw that's wrong and you are saying that's the business forcing their beliefs. And to top that off you called ME a lair????
Because you have repeatedly lied and continue to lie. Likely because you know that to deal with the facts would paint you in a very bad light. For example, you are constitutionally incapable of even talking about equal rights, racism of homophobia. Using analogies, you essentially compared the act of simply selling goods or providing services to these groups without discrimination to, amongst other things, an ammunition merchant selling bullets to be used in a mass shooting and a taxi driver being forced to drive someone "to a rape".

Boiled down to its core, your argument is that the simple act of being gay or being black is just as bad as committing a mass shooting or a rape.

If you recognize that this above statement is absurd, then you should understand why your wild and ridiculous analogies serve to paint you in a very poor light, and how your inability to deal with reality shows you up. You have made hyperboles like the above all the time. You have made claims about the negative impact of these laws which simply aren't true. And you even compared Christians to Jews in Nazi Germany.

You are the one not living in reality. I a trying, vainly, to bring you back down.

Now, you have a choice. Either dispense with the sophistry, the hyperbole, the mischaracterization and the emotional appeals and deal with this subject as a reasonable, intelligent person that I very confident you are, or you can continue to engage is all the above bad-faith nonsense and be an extremely, extremely poor advocate for the people you are trying to argue for.

Which do you choose?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You keep denying the rights of liberty and insulting me so. I’m going to not waste any more of my time.
I have done neither. To point out lies is not to insult, and to repeatedly and patiently explain that religious liberty does not extend to public business is not a denial of liberty.

The only time you have wasted is mine if you still refuse to read anything I write properly and just want to make stuff up about me.
 
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