A way forwarded (Obergefell)

[Truth in love]

It was back then. And they were told oh well.

So your perfectly fine violating someones basic human rights if your team is the one doing the violating and you don't like the ones being violated?

 

[Truth in love]

Your assumptions. I never said anything about the law being great or oppressive. Again, my belief is if you go into business to serve the public then you serve the public. If you don't want to serve the public then go do something else.

And by forcing that on others haw many will go hungry, homeless etc. Because they were unwilling to bend the knee to a new edict?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Yet so many do so to Christians on here every day and claim that it’s good thing. How does that work?

Religion isn't an innate quality. Discrimination against Christians is usually a reaction to discriminatory attitudes of certain believers. If certain Christians stopped trying to get everyone to go by their religion's rules, no one would make a peep.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So are you denying that a person lives their beliefs at work?

Are you suggesting that you can justify anything at work, provided a person believes it?

Or maybe it is your view that those people don’t deserve their rights to be protected?

Their rights are protected. You have yet to demonstrate anything to the contrary.

Let’s look at what is similar between the Jews and Christians.
1. A theory that they are evil and harming society. There is enough evidence on this web page alone to support that.

This is a profoundly ridiculous statement on many levels, and well below you. Try harder.

2, The belief that they are 2nd class people or worse. Your last post supports this.

This is also ridiculous. Not allowing a group to have the privilege of treating OTHERS as second-class citizens does not reduce THEM to second-class citizens.

3. Efforts to isolate them and to demonize them. Your labeling people bigots for simply living by their beliefs.

That depends if their belief is bigoted or not. If they believe bigoted things, they are bigots. I am sorry that you do not like this basic logic, but that's neither here nor there. If you believe people deserve to treated worse because of the colour of their skin or who are they fall in love with, you are a bigot. I feel this is an uncontroversial statement.

4. being driven out of positions of power and respect. We saw attempts at this at Barrots confirmation hearings. You’ve indicated support for someone whose beliefs you disagree with losing their businesses.

I believe laws should be upheld with regards to equal treatment in business. If you are unable to abide by those laws, you should not be in business. Again, this is an uncontroversial statement.

5. vandalism. We see many cases of churches being shot up and burned to the ground along with crisis pregnancy centers.

I see. So ANY amount of vandalism = we are being treated like Jews in Nazi Germany?

Please take a good look in the mirror for five seconds and tell me you think that this is a reasonable statement. Meanwhile: Christians hold the vast majority of governmental offices in America, including holding EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENCY EVER. They are the single most powerful religious institution in the country, with wealth and influence that vastly outpaces any other religious group in history. You have countless megachurches, TV stations, news organisations, charities and think-tanks.

Are you serious?

Now this has not as wide spread ad the Jews suffered and we have not sent Christians to concentration camps (but I’ve seen the idea called for off and on over the years).

I have heard Christians call for atheist concentration camps. One of your most recent presidents said that atheists shouldn't be considered "citizens or patriots". There are almost no (outspoken) atheists in public office, and a politician merely saying that they are an atheist is enough to scupper their chance of election in many states and boroughs. Recent studies have shown that atheists are one of the least liked and least trusted groups in America.

And yet, I would never in my right mind compare what atheists experience in America to what Jews experienced in Nazi Germany (or even what they continue to experience in many, many parts of the world today). Such a comparison is absurd, and shows a fundamental disrespect to them, to history in general, and the very people I would claim to be trying to support the rights of.

I urge you to examine your conscience.

We should be getting away from that path not going down it.

What's happening now is that Christians are very slowly losing the absolute stranglehold on power that they used to have, and are now having to settle for merely having an ALMOST absolute stranglehold on power. To you, that's terrible, because you want the power to control and subjugate others.

Or, you could accept the fact that equality is a thing and get over it already.

Your are missing the entire point.
If I provide a service let’s say selling sandwiches. And I happen to be Jewish. To you adding bacon might be a normal request but to be it’s abhorrent and I refuse. Do I deserve to lose my business?

No, because - again - that would be asking you to provide something that you don't ordinarily provide. You are once again failing to grasp the difference between being forced to provide a service which you don't ordinarily provide, and being forced to provide a service EQUALLY TO ALL GROUPS.

To use your analogy, there is a world of difference between a Jewish person opening a sandwich shop that doesn't offer bacon, and a Jewish person opening and sandwich shop which refuses to sell sandwiches to black or gay people.

If you don't understand the difference, then I cannot help you. I'm not sure what can.

Where is your right to require me to replace my deeply help beliefs with yours?

Nowhere except in your imagination.

I would also like to point out that your entire argument is about replacing other people's beliefs with your own. Because, to you, Christians deserve the right to treat others differently, and that this should be enshrined in and protected by others. What purpose does that serve other than to enforce on society the idea that Christian thought supercedes all other beliefs and rights?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And by forcing that on others haw many will go hungry, homeless etc. Because they were unwilling to bend the knee to a new edict?

So far? None.

Point them out, please.

 

[Truth in love]

So would you support a the right for a business to refuse to serve Jews? If serving Jews went against their deeply held religious beliefs?

I have been through this argument uncounted times before. It is not about what they are asking people to do, it is who the customer is. If you sell cakes then you sell cakes. You don’t get to say I won’t sell this cake to a Jew, or a Muslim, or a gay person.

You can’t have a “whites only lunch counter” and you can’t have a “straights only florist shop”.

Yes. I'm not a fan of the practice, but at the end of the day if a company feels that a given action is morally unacceptable (like how their project would be use) they should be able to say no. The free market and boycotts greatly discourage such a thing. The flower shop lady in Richland, WA served gay clients all the time, but a gay wedding was crossing a line for her. I think she has the right to draw that line as she sees fit. Now maybe the community would have stopped buying her flowers, okay. Maybe someone would have changed her mind, okay. But the force of government and mob violence are not the way to do this.

If the government forces me to serve anyone and everyone regardless of how it might be used then A guy coming into the car dealership and wants a big truck with the intent of running over a parade of nuns is can say so and the car dealer is legally required to sell it. If we put up limits to what a person can believe and how they can live by it as a condition of functioning in society we have no right of religious freedom. We just have some privileges that can be revoked at any time.

Would you want to deny services to the mafia, because you find their actions unacceptable? Would you want to make banners with hateful messages calling for violence against a minority groups?

Its easy to say a cake is a cake, but for many people their craft is a part of their life, an extension of their deeply held beliefs. They feel a moral and/or ethical obligation to do things consistent with their beliefs.

Now in my line of work (mental health) I serve people I disagree with. This has included persons accused of murder, sex abuse, child abuse, drug abuse a wide spectrum of cultural, religious and sexual identities etc. I provide a service to try to help the person live a better life. I don't feel that doing so violates my beliefs ( I also won't endorse a lot of behaviors I don't think is healthy)., All that said I do reserve the right to put my beliefs first and should an event occur where the public view and my views don't jive I won't bend the knee.

So the Supreme court rules that child sex abuse is normal and I'm asked to help people feel good about this. The answer is no. A state passes a law allowing for mass murder of Muslims and I'm asked to join the chairing crowed the answer is no. And see no justification to lose my life, business etc. for refusing to endorse something I find morally repugnant. Sure many people might like the new idea. Odds are I can make more money playing along, but there are lines that I won't cross. And because I have this in my life its only fair to extend the same to my fellow human and accept that there are lines they won't cross and I don't think they should be punished for it.

 

[Truth in love]

Religion isn't an innate quality. Discrimination against Christians is usually a reaction to discriminatory attitudes of certain believers. If certain Christians stopped trying to get everyone to go by their religion's rules, no one would make a peep.

Really so when the supreme court directed that gay marriages was a thing, no one targeted Christians in their various business. No one been vandalizing and burning down crisis pregnancy centers (which don't try to force things). No one burning churches.

Going to have to stay with the facts on this. Many people have and do target Christians who did not try to force anything.

Truly this is full on victim blaming.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Really so when the supreme court directed that gay marriages was a thing, no one targeted Christians in their various business. No one been vandalizing and burning down crisis pregnancy centers (which don't try to force things). No one burning churches.

Going to have to stay with the facts on this. Many people have and do target Christians who did not try to force anything.

Truly this is full on victim blaming.

Could you please present to me statistics that show that Christians are a significant target of terrorism in America compared to any other groups? Or that there was a significant increase in attacks following the legalization of gay marriage?

See, you actually have to do more to demonstrate harm than saying "attacks have happened". Attacks have happened and have continued to happen to all groups. Last I checked, gay people were still far greater targets of violence, threats, intimidation and outright terrorism in the USA than Christians ever have been. So please spare us your victim complex.

 

[Truth in love]

Are you suggesting that you can justify anything at work, provided a person believes it?


Their rights are protected. You have yet to demonstrate anything to the contrary.


This is a profoundly ridiculous statement on many levels, and well below you. Try harder.


This is also ridiculous. Not allowing a group to have the privilege of treating OTHERS as second-class citizens does not reduce THEM to second-class citizens.


That depends if their belief is bigoted or not. If they believe bigoted things, they are bigots. I am sorry that you do not like this basic logic, but that's neither here nor there. If you believe people deserve to treated worse because of the colour of their skin or who are they fall in love with, you are a bigot. I feel this is an uncontroversial statement.


I believe laws should be upheld with regards to equal treatment in business. If you are unable to abide by those laws, you should not be in business. Again, this is an uncontroversial statement.


I see. So ANY amount of vandalism = we are being treated like Jews in Nazi Germany?

Please take a good look in the mirror for five seconds and tell me you think that this is a reasonable statement. Meanwhile: Christians hold the vast majority of governmental offices in America, including holding EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENCY EVER. They are the single most powerful religious institution in the country, with wealth and influence that vastly outpaces any other religious group in history. You have countless megachurches, TV stations, news organisations, charities and think-tanks.

Are you serious?


I have heard Christians call for atheist concentration camps. One of your most recent presidents said that atheists shouldn't be considered "citizens or patriots". There are almost no (outspoken) atheists in public office, and a politician merely saying that they are an atheist is enough to scupper their chance of election in many states and boroughs. Recent studies have shown that atheists are one of the least liked and least trusted groups in America.

And yet, I would never in my right mind compare what atheists experience in America to what Jews experienced in Nazi Germany (or even what they continue to experience in many, many parts of the world today). Such a comparison is absurd, and shows a fundamental disrespect to them, to history in general, and the very people I would claim to be trying to support the rights of.

I urge you to examine your conscience.


What's happening now is that Christians are very slowly losing the absolute stranglehold on power that they used to have, and are now having to settle for merely having an ALMOST absolute stranglehold on power. To you, that's terrible, because you want the power to control and subjugate others.

Or, you could accept the fact that equality is a thing and get over it already.


No, because - again - that would be asking you to provide something that you don't ordinarily provide. You are once again failing to grasp the difference between being forced to provide a service which you don't ordinarily provide, and being forced to provide a service EQUALLY TO ALL GROUPS.

To use your analogy, there is a world of difference between a Jewish person opening a sandwich shop that doesn't offer bacon, and a Jewish person opening and sandwich shop which refuses to sell sandwiches to black or gay people.

If you don't understand the difference, then I cannot help you. I'm not sure what can.


Nowhere except in your imagination.

I would also like to point out that your entire argument is about replacing other people's beliefs with your own. Because, to you, Christians deserve the right to treat others differently, and that this should be enshrined in and protected by others. What purpose does that serve other than to enforce on society the idea that Christian thought supercedes all other beliefs and rights?

Well you made my point very well. You reject that a person in your bad group gets to have their rights. That is 2nd class citizenship. You may not want to see it, but that is exactly what you are promoting.

My conscience is clear. IF you bothered to read my OP (seems most people skipped it). The whole point of this thread is to ensure the just and fair treatment of everyone. If I wanted Christian supremacy I would not argue in favor of a system that protect the rights of all including those I happen to disagree with.

The argument of providing equally to all groups assumes that all groups are asking for the same product or service. And while it might look like that to you it might not to someone else. If I sell Ammunition and one guy comes in for 100 rounds to go dear hunting and the next one wants 100 rounds to go school shooting I'm pretty sure you want to me say no to guy number 2. Just because 2 things are equal in your mind does not mean that is the rule for everyone else.

 

[Truth in love]

So far? None.

Point them out, please.

Christian couple loses business for refusing to participate in gay 'wedding' - LifeSite

Government Agency Blacklists Couple for Not Supporting Gay Marriage

Sweet Cakes by Melissa, bakery that turned away lesbians, closes

https://www.courts.wa.gov/content/p...fusing service states highest court rules.pdf

Jack Phillips: Judge finds Colorado baker broke state discrimination law by refusing to bake a birthday cake for a trans woman - CNN


There is a shot list of the people in some cases targeted for the "crime" of believing and living by their beliefs. In a nation that expressly protects religious freedom.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well you made my point very well. You reject that a person in your bad group gets to have their rights. That is 2nd class citizenship. You may not want to see it, but that is exactly what you are promoting.

**mod edit**

Please demonstrate where I have suggested people shouldn't have their rights.

My conscience is clear. IF you bothered to read my OP (seems most people skipped it). The whole point of this thread is to ensure the just and fair treatment of everyone. If I wanted Christian supremacy I would not argue in favor of a system that protect the rights of all including those I happen to disagree with.

And yet you are entirely preoccupied with "Christian oppression" and don't care even the slightest about the SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE oppression faced by other groups. And you know for a fact that, since Christians hold the majority of power, including the overwhelming majority of power in business, allowing those businesses to operate without any regard for equality towards who they serve would significantly and disproportionately negatively impact groups that Christians do not like.

You are not in favour of equality. Please stop pretending you are.

The argument of providing equally to all groups assumes that all groups are asking for the same product or service. And while it might look like that to you it might not to someone else. If I sell Ammunition and one guy comes in for 100 rounds to go dear hunting and the next one wants 100 rounds to go school shooting I'm pretty sure you want to me say no to guy number 2. Just because 2 things are equal in your mind does not mean that is the rule for everyone else.

The fact that you still fail to grasp that this is not about the service you provide BUT WHO YOU ARE PROVIDING IT TO speaks volumes. And the fact that you compare simply being gay or black to conducting a school shooting is morally appalling.

You are clearly not reading my posts.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Christian couple loses business for refusing to participate in gay 'wedding' - LifeSite

Government Agency Blacklists Couple for Not Supporting Gay Marriage

Sweet Cakes by Melissa, bakery that turned away lesbians, closes

https://www.courts.wa.gov/content/publicupload/eclips/2017 02 16 Richland florist discriminated against gay couple by refusing service states highest court rules.pdf

Jack Phillips: Judge finds Colorado baker broke state discrimination law by refusing to bake a birthday cake for a trans woman - CNN


There is a shot list of the people in some cases targeted for the "crime" of believing and living by their beliefs. In a nation that expressly protects religious freedom.

And your evidence of these people going homeless and hungry is...?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Really so when the supreme court directed that gay marriages was a thing, no one targeted Christians in their various business. No one been vandalizing and burning down crisis pregnancy centers (which don't try to force things). No one burning churches.

Going to have to stay with the facts on this. Many people have and do target Christians who did not try to force anything.

Truly this is full on victim blaming.

I thought you meant on here. There are crazies in the world, of all religions and view points.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And by forcing that on others haw many will go hungry, homeless etc. Because they were unwilling to bend the knee to a new edict?

Oh well. I'll never shed a tear or give a damn for a bigot.

So your perfectly fine violating someones basic human rights if your team is the one doing the violating and you don't like the ones being violated?

Discrimination isn't a right. So, yes, I am PERFECTLY happy to telling bigots they must share society.

 

[Truth in love]

Could you please present to me statistics that show that Christians are a significant target of terrorism in America compared to any other groups? Or that there was a significant increase in attacks following the legalization of gay marriage?

See, you actually have to do more to demonstrate harm than saying "attacks have happened". Attacks have happened and have continued to happen to all groups. Last I checked, gay people were still far greater targets of violence, threats, intimidation and outright terrorism in the USA than Christians ever have been. So please spare us your victim complex.

I don’t have any stats on the exact number.

I dispute the ever bit given the history of religious intolerance, but no act of terrorism is acceptable.
It seems that you continue to dismiss the human rights of the groups you dismiss and being less valuable.

 

[Truth in love]

Now you're just lying.

Please demonstrate where I have suggested people shouldn't have their rights.


And yet you are entirely preoccupied with "Christian oppression" and don't care even the slightest about the SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE oppression faced by other groups. And you know for a fact that, since Christians hold the majority of power, including the overwhelming majority of power in business, allowing those businesses to operate without any regard for equality towards who they serve would significantly and disproportionately negatively impact groups that Christians do not like.

You are not in favour of equality. Please stop pretending you are.


The fact that you still fail to grasp that this is not about the service you provide BUT WHO YOU ARE PROVIDING IT TO speaks volumes. And the fact that you compare simply being gay or black to conducting a school shooting is morally appalling.

You are clearly not reading my posts.

Your calling me a liar and insisting that I’m opposed to equal rights when that’s what I’m advocating. Any other far fetched ideas or insults you wish to fling?

 

[Truth in love]

And your evidence of these people going homeless and hungry is...?

Loss of business or threat of often results in hunger and homelessness

 

[Truth in love]

Oh well. I'll never shed a tear or give a damn for a bigot.

Discrimination isn't a right. So, yes, I am PERFECTLY happy to telling bigots they must share society.

Well may I suggest a good pair of jackboots to go with that mentality. This is the underlying theory behind most of the atrocities inflicted on mankind in the modern era.

All you have to do is accuse them of wrong and then you are not only free to but virtually compelled to abuse them.

 

[Jainarayan]

I freely admit I'm not the brightest bulb on the marquee, so I don't see how Roe is in any way similar to Obergefell. IIRC Roe was largely decided on a right to privacy issue, which the Constitution does not guarantee. Obergefell was decided largely on the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well may I suggest a good pair of jackboots to go with that mentality. This is the underlying theory behind most of the atrocities inflicted on mankind in the modern era.

You mean how racial segregation was ended? What was so atrocious about that? Why should anyone care about those who object? Catering to their feelings and expectations needlessly infringes upon the life and liberty of others.

All you have to do is accuse them of wrong and then you are not only free to but virtually compelled to abuse them.

Yes, it is wrong to discriminate. It's not hard to understand this. And the mental anguish a man of a man upset he is underneath a woman? Why should anyone care about his hurt feelings? Catering to his expectations infringes upon the life and rights of another.