Mixing different beliefs

[VoidCat]

Tagging @Guitar's Cry
I recently have felt a shift if you'll like to call it in my beliefs. Tho I have some luciferian beliefs I no longer consider myself a pagan luciferian. I still worship Lucifer but now I consider myself a Demonolatrist and a Pagan rather than just a Luciferian tho and I guess you could still call me one cuz I do worship Lucifer but i just feel Demonolatrist fits better cuz of my veiws I've developed on Christ.

See I see him as a good guy. And I've came to the conclusion while I have taken ideas from left handed paths and still will be getting ideas and following views from it im not purely left handed. Im my own god and serve myself above anyone else but I wouldn't say no to gaining knowledge from anywhere no matter where it comes from. And if Jesus was to pop up in Divination or something and was like yo I got some knowledge please work with me I'd accept so long as he was ok with other deities. And from what I've read from Christian witches and christopagans he can be worked with alongside such deities.

I'm not working with him my view right now is I want to respect Jesus. I see him as just another deity among many. Not as omnipotient and i dont view him like Christians. Not see him as my savior or work with him as a deity but maybe make offerings from time to type and pray to him. He's a decent guy. And I would be lying if the idea of working with him alongside Lucifer(as Samael since Lucifer is a title Christ holds but in this case I'm referring to Samael) doesnt have appeal. He can teach me just like Samael can. I could learn from him. Both Lucifer and Jesus have lessons you could learn from their archetypes. So tho I dont plan on working with him I've recently put some offerings for him on my altar. I painted some statues for him. I can post pics of them here if anyone is interested.

I guess. Im just mostly syncretic. Willing to learn from anyone or anything just seeking knowledge anywhere.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Some Christian Gnostics see Lucifer as a good guy, since he is opposed to the Demuirge, which is the God of the Old Testament, but in opposition to the true God.

 

[VoidCat]

Some Christian Gnostics see Lucifer as a good guy, since he is opposed to the Demuirge, which is the God of the Old Testament, but in opposition to the true God.

I've been meaning to look into gnosticism but havent got around to it

 

[VoidCat]

I've been meaning to look into gnosticism but havent got around to it

I feel I'd probably agree with it on some things. Im curious on Christian gnosticism and theistic gnostic satanism

 

[Hildeburh]

You consider yourself a pagan? Here is the etymology of pagan:

pagan | Etymology, origin and meaning of pagan by etymonline

You worship Lucifer and offer to Jesus, these are mytholgical beings of the monotheistic Christian tradition. This tradition spurned, derided and mocked pagan traditions.

" Both Lucifer and Jesus have lessons you could learn from their archetypes".

I am interested in which pagan deities you consider to be archetypal of the Christian Lucifer and Jesus.

 

[VoidCat]

You consider yourself a pagan? Here is the etymology of pagan:

pagan | Etymology, origin and meaning of pagan by etymonline

I'm a pagan cuz I worship the pagan gods and do ancestral worship (yes. I worship Loki and Bastet and my ancestors and I honor nature spirits) am an animist and worship nature. I have very strong folk-like beliefs. Im also a nonchristian and do not follow an abrahamic religion despite believing in and honoring deities many associate with christianity. Jesus did not harm pagans. Nor did Samael. Christians did that and besides my views of this deities differ drasticly from christians and abrahamics. I do not have abrahamic views not really my views of deities are not Christian or abrahamic. I dont believe in the Bible I view all the myths in it as symbolic and it is written by men completely fallible. Jesus is not my savior there is no sin, Lucifer is not the devil moving folk away from Christ etc. No deity is all knowing, none are perfect not even the abrahamic god. I am far from a christian and from being abrahamic. Ive taken christian ideas sure but I am not a christian. Do not tell me how I should identify. I know perfectly well what a pagan is and what it's like to be one I've been one for years before honoring Lucifer and before leaving offerings to Jesus(I used to be a christian before I converted to paganism and I stopped believing Jesus existed for years before rehonoring him very recently). I will admit my views aren't purely pagan as there is some christian symbolism but then again I am a syncretic and I do see myself as a pagan for many reasons. It's the best term for who I am. Labels are to help describe something not absolute definers.

I am interested in which pagan deities you consider to be archetypal of the Christian Lucifer and Jesus

I don't worship a christian Lucifer or honor a christian Jesus. Again my views on Jesus are very different from Christians and so are they towards Lucifer. But. The myths do tell us a lot about these deities. I would say Lucifer is similar to Set, Prometheus, Loki, and Venus. There also was a Roman deity that was known as Lucifer before Christianity existed called Phosphoros. But there isn't much known on them. I see Lucifer as a title rather then a name. Jesus he's more tricky. Many associate him with Apollo and Dionysis. He's not really a perfect archetype to be honest as there really are no savior figures dying on a cross in mythology. However there are deities associated with order, with light, with kindness, opposing evil, and wellbeing and so I tend to associate him with some of those deities. Like Ma'at and Krishna.

 

[Hildeburh]

I'm a pagan cuz I worship the pagan gods and do ancestral worship (yes. I worship Loki and Bastet and my ancestors and I honor nature spirits) am an animist and worship nature..

I also honour specific pagan gods/esses, my ancestors and the nature spirits (known as wights in my tradition).

have very strong folk-like beliefs

I also study and incorporate folk beliefs and charms (pre Christian English) in my day to day practice.

Im also a nonchristian and do not follow an abrahamic religion despite believing in and honoring deities many associate with christianity. Jesus did not harm pagans

I do not understand this; belief in Jesus led to the Crusades, persecution of cunning women (so called witches), forced conversion of native pre Christian societies and in my tradition execution of thousands of Saxons who would not abandon the Old religion. Those who practiced folk beliefs and paganism were persecuted, punished and ridiculed in the name of Christianity. Jesus did not exist outside of Christian mythology and pagans were asked to abandon belief in their gods before they could become Christians.

Christians did that and besides my views of this deities differ drasticly from christians and abrahamics. I do not have abrahamic views not really my views of deities are not Christian or abrahamic..

Chistians persecuted pagans in Jesus name and this deity does not exist outside of Abrahamic belief. Was Jesus based on pagan gods? Yes, Jesus is highly syncretic, he is based on the dying and resurrecting gods of paganism; Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis and Attis and Dionysus; myth stolen from paganism and used to pervert and destroy pagan beliefs. Jesus may be based on pagan mythology but he is a Christian deity not pagan.

I dont believe in the Bible I view all the myths in it as symbolic and it is written by men completely fallible. Jesus is not my savior there is no sin, Lucifer is not the devil moving folk away from Christ etc.

Lucifer was/is a Christian construct, a fallen angel who was cast down by God. Later Christian literature where he is known as Satan/Beelzebub/Mephistopheles/Iblis etc were based on the Old gods and used to pervert pre Christian beliefs and frighten Christian into obedience. It was no accident that Christianity adopted aspects of the Old religions, such as holy days and aspects of mythology (particularly Greek) to convert and coerce pagans into conversion.

No deity is all knowing, none are perfect not even the abrahamic god. I am far from a christian and from being abrahamic. Ive taken christian ideas sure but I am not a christian. Do not tell me how I should identify. I know perfectly well what a pagan is and what it's like to be one I've been one for years before honoring Lucifer and before leaving offerings to Jesus(I used to be a christian before I converted to paganism and I stopped believing Jesus existed for years before rehonoring him very recently)..

Pagan gods/esses certainty were not omnipotent, they were/are fickle and unpredictable. Don't be defensive, I'm not in the business of telling people what they should and should not believe but I am a dedicated pagan and find it difficult to understand pagans who worship Jesus and Lucfer in their Christian guise. It does not surprise me that you used to be Christian, it can be hard to let go of old beliefs.

I will admit my views aren't purely pagan as there is some christian symbolism but then again I am a syncretic and I do see myself as a pagan for many reasons. It's the best term for who I am. Labels are to help describe something not absolute definers.

I do agree labels are not definers, I find in the pagan community labels can be misunderstood or misused but the label Christian or pagan was and is a definer you could be one but not the other in Christian belief. I prefer to have my feet firmly planted in paganism and take instruction from my ancestors, our corpus informs us that anglosaxon pagans were condemned as blasphemers.for adding Jesus to their altars, so it seems though it was one or the other for them, not both..

I don't worship a christian Lucifer or honor a christian Jesus. Again my views on Jesus are very different from Christians and so are they towards Lucifer. But. The myths do tell us a lot about these deities. I would say Lucifer is similar to Set, Prometheus, Loki, and Venus. There also was a Roman deity that was known as Lucifer before Christianity existed called Phosphoros. But there isn't much known on them. I see Lucifer as a title rather then a name. Jesus he's more tricky. Many associate him with Apollo and Dionysis. He's not really a perfect archetype to be honest as there really are no savior figures dying on a cross in mythology. However there are deities associated with order, with light, with kindness, opposing evil, and wellbeing and so I tend to associate him with some of those deities. Like Ma'at and Krishna.

I can certainly see that Lucifer was syncretic with Phosphorus/Eosphoros ( Venus as the morning star) though there is very lttle mythologhy in Hellenic myth related to this deity and the myth of Prometheus is an interesting correlation. Prometheus was punished by Zeus which could be construed as similar to God's punishment of Lucifer. However, Prometheus gave to us when he stole fire from Zeus and gave it back to mankind; Lucifer in the Biblical tradition took paradise from mankind by deception. I do not see Loki in any way syncretic with Lucifer.

Jesus is a direct sycretism with the dying and resurrecting gods of mythology. His dying on the cross can be related to the mythos of Odin. For me, I just think that both of these Christian deities come with so much baggage, in terms of destroying paganism, that worshiping them is disrespecting my beliefs.

Good talking to you

 

[VoidCat]

Lucifer was/is a Christian construct, a fallen angel who was cast down by God. Later Christian literature where he is known as Satan/Beelzebub/Mephistopheles/Iblis etc were based on the Old gods and used to pervert pre Christian beliefs and frighten Christian into obedience. It was no accident that Christianity adopted aspects of the Old religions, such as holy days and aspects of mythology (particularly Greek) to convert and coerce pagans into conversion

My views on Samael are more Luciferian and theistic Satanist then christian

I do not understand this; belief in Jesus led to the Crusades, persecution of cunning women (so called witches), forced conversion of native pre Christian societies and in my tradition execution of thousands of Saxons who would not abandon the Old religion. Those who practiced folk beliefs and paganism were persecuted, punished and ridiculed in the name of Christianity. Jesus did not exist outside of Christian mythology and pagans were asked to abandon belief in their gods before they could become Christians

Again. Equating my beliefs with that of Christians. Jesus does today exist outside christian mythology. Muslims and Bahais believe in him tho they don't worship him. Gnostics believed and believe in him tho most Christians don't agree with them and their views are vastly different then Christians of today's world. Many christians would say Gnostics aren't and weren't christian. They even believed Lucifer to be a good guy and Yahweh to be a bad guy. Trinitarian Wiccans worship him but they aren't christian. Some theistic Satanists and Luciferians believe Jesus exists. I view Jesus differently then Christians. Also I don't hate on a deity for the actions of their followers. Norse pagans used to do human sacrifice. Does that mean the pagan gods approved? No not necessarily. Im seperating the deity from the actions of their followers. And creating my own beliefs regarding said deity.

I do agree labels are not definers, I find in the pagan community labels can be misunderstood or misused but the label Christian or pagan was and is a definer you could be one but not the other in Christian belief. I prefer to have my feet firmly planted in paganism and take instruction from my ancestors, our corpus informs us that anglosaxon pagans were condemned as blasphemers.for adding Jesus to their altars, so it seems though it was one or the other for them, not both

I would never see myself as a christian so that's fine by me. As for blasphamy I don't care what ancient Christians think of me adding Jesus to my altar. They are not him and im not a christian. Or anything close to one. What christians did and believe regarding blasphemy are of no concern to me. I'm more interested in gnosticism at the moment. Jesus called me. So did Lucifer. I'm not one to ignore anyone regardless of who they are. If someone wishes to be in my life and they mean me no harm then I'll allow them in my life. I could use all the help I could get.

Pagan gods/esses certainty were not omnipotent, they were/are fickle and unpredictable. Don't be defensive, I'm not in the business of telling people what they should and should not believe but I am a dedicated pagan and find it difficult to understand pagans who worship Jesus and Lucfer in their Christian guise. It does not surprise me that you used to be Christian, it can be hard to let go of old beliefs

I'm not trying to be defensive. Just direct and blunt. Im sorry if it comes off that way. I do not honor either deity in their Christian guise. As ive said my views on both differ greatly from Christians.

Lucifer in the Biblical tradition took paradise from mankind by deception

In biblical tradation. Not in theistic satanism or in Luciferianism. Lucifer took mankind away from deception and enlightened man with the fruit of knowledge. That's a good thing. As for Loki he's known as a breaker of illusions and of self deceit to many Loki followers that's part of why I associate him with Lucifer. There are some myths I see similarities to Lucifer but that might just be me

Good talking to you

It was! I enjoyed it.

 

[VoidCat]

For me, I just think that both of these Christian deities come with so much baggage, in terms of destroying paganism, that worshiping them is disrespecting my beliefs

I can see this. However I have a different take. Deities are not their followers. You can't blame them for what their followers have done. If that was the case many folk should never worship the Aztec gods or the Norse gods for that matter as both have had human sacrifice in the past. Many pagans much to what folk like to think have done terrible things in their gods names. Maybe not as much or as bad as some Christians for sure. But they have done bad things and either way you can't blame a deity for the actions of their followers

 

[Hildeburh]

My views on Samael are more Luciferian and theistic Satanist then christian


Again. Equating my beliefs with that of Christians. Jesus does today exist outside christian mythology. Muslims and Bahais believe in him tho they don't worship him. Gnostics believed and believe in him tho most Christians don't agree with them and their views are vastly different then Christians of today's world. Many christians would say Gnostics aren't and weren't christian. They even believed Lucifer to be a good guy and Yahweh to be a bad guy. Trinitarian Wiccans worship him but they aren't christian. Some theistic Satanists and Luciferians believe Jesus exists. I view Jesus differently then Christians. Also I don't hate on a deity for the actions of their followers. Norse pagans used to do human sacrifice. Does that mean the pagan gods approved? No not necessarily. Im seperating the deity from the actions of their followers. And creating my own beliefs regarding said deity.

No. Jesus does not exist outside pre-Christian mythology; Islam and Gnosticism are Abrahamic faiths. Baháʼí is a 19th century faith and Wicca is 20th century. Irrespective of how Abrahamic religions or their sects and offshoots viewed Jesus or Satan does not make either of these figures pre-Christian. Have they been adopted and reimaged outside the Abrahamic religions? Yes, but their mythos is essentially Christian. Are they attested to in pre-Christian literature? No.

As for human sacrifice/blood sacrifice for Norse gods/esses of course they approved, the literature is pretty clear in that respect. You would be hard pressed to find a pagan belief structure that didn't include blood sacrifice in one form or another.

I would never see myself as a christian so that's fine by me. As for blasphamy I don't care what ancient Christians think of me adding Jesus to my altar. They are not him and im not a christian. Or anything close to one. What christians did and believe regarding blasphemy are of no concern to me. I'm more interested in gnosticism at the moment. Jesus called me. So did Lucifer. I'm not one to ignore anyone regardless of who they are. If someone wishes to be in my life and they mean me no harm then I'll allow them in my life. I could use all the help I could get.

Gnosticism is Abrahamic in nature, discourses regarding mans relationship with the Abrahamic God, the nature of Jesus and Satan, do not exist outside the Abrahamic texts. Gnosticism was a movement within Christianity , there is no compelling evidence for pre-Christian Gnosticism. Which is why I struggle to understand why anyone who offers to these deities would consider themselves pagan

I'm not trying to be defensive. Just direct and blunt. Im sorry if it comes off that way. I do not honor either deity in their Christian guise. As ive said my views on both differ greatly from Christians.
In biblical tradation. Not in theistic satanism or in Luciferianism. Lucifer took mankind away from deception and enlightened man with the fruit of knowledge. That's a good thing. As for Loki he's known as a breaker of illusions and of self deceit to many Loki followers that's part of why I associate him with Lucifer. There are some myths I see similarities to Lucifer but that might just be me

I am also direct and blunt, so I do enjoy that in discussions.

The serpent in the Garden of Eden may or may not have been Lucifer, there is an interesting discussion here on the serpent in Eden :
The Serpent in the Garden of Eden and its Background | Bible Interp

Loki in Norse tradition really isn't a god of anything; he's a mischief maker and oath breaker with no evidence that he had a pre-Christian cultic following.

 

[VoidCat]

Jesus does not exist outside pre-Christian mythology

I didnt say prechristian. I said outside Christianity.

Loki in Norse tradition really isn't a god of anything; he's a mischief maker and oath breaker with no evidence that he had a pre-Christian cultic following

In pre Christianity. Religions again change with time. Now folk do worship Loki in Norse paganism

Which is why I struggle to understand why anyone who offers to these deities would consider themselves pagan

That's fine. You don't have to understand it

 

[VoidCat]

The serpent in the Garden of Eden may or may not have been Lucifer, there is and interesting discussion here on the serpent in Eden

In luciferianism there are multiple Lucifers. Samael, Lilith, and other demons can be considered a Lucifer. I'll read the link in a sec

 

[VoidCat]

The serpent in the Garden of Eden may or may not have been Lucifer, there is and interesting discussion here on the serpent in Eden :
The Serpent in the Garden of Eden and its Background | Bible Interp

Yeah a theory I heard before. It's interesting the multiple different versions of the myth

 

[Goldemar]

My views on Samael are more Luciferian and theistic Satanist then christian


Again. Equating my beliefs with that of Christians. Jesus does today exist outside christian mythology. Muslims and Bahais believe in him tho they don't worship him. Gnostics believed and believe in him tho most Christians don't agree with them and their views are vastly different then Christians of today's world. Many christians would say Gnostics aren't and weren't christian. They even believed Lucifer to be a good guy and Yahweh to be a bad guy. Trinitarian Wiccans worship him but they aren't christian. Some theistic Satanists and Luciferians believe Jesus exists. I view Jesus differently then Christians. Also I don't hate on a deity for the actions of their followers. Norse pagans used to do human sacrifice. Does that mean the pagan gods approved? No not necessarily. Im seperating the deity from the actions of their followers. And creating my own beliefs regarding said deity.

I would never see myself as a christian so that's fine by me. As for blasphamy I don't care what ancient Christians think of me adding Jesus to my altar. They are not him and im not a christian. Or anything close to one. What christians did and believe regarding blasphemy are of no concern to me. I'm more interested in gnosticism at the moment. Jesus called me. So did Lucifer. I'm not one to ignore anyone regardless of who they are. If someone wishes to be in my life and they mean me no harm then I'll allow them in my life. I could use all the help I could get.


I'm not trying to be defensive. Just direct and blunt. Im sorry if it comes off that way. I do not honor either deity in their Christian guise. As ive said my views on both differ greatly from Christians.
In biblical tradation. Not in theistic satanism or in Luciferianism. Lucifer took mankind away from deception and enlightened man with the fruit of knowledge. That's a good thing. As for Loki he's known as a breaker of illusions and of self deceit to many Loki followers that's part of why I associate him with Lucifer. There are some myths I see similarities to Lucifer but that might just be me

It was! I enjoyed it.

I thought I would just come in to say that I identify as a Gnostic but I reject Jesus (like the Mandaeans who are an influence for me).