Should Bahaism be allowed to be practiced in Iran.

[InvestigateTruth]

Not true as already explained to you. There's all sort of channels and people speaking against Iranian government and the "mullas", and they are allowed.

There's got to be reason why you guys aren't allowed, and I got some of it trickling out of your interpretation of day of judgment with political situation we are in.

I'm going to trust the "mullas" over you. Sorry, you show no sincerity to truth in either Quran or hadiths, but just twisting things way out of their place.

For me it is not politics. But I understand your concerns, specifically if you live in Iran

 

[Link]

For me it is not politics. But I understand your concerns, specifically if you live in Iran

Your interpretation is political whether you acknowledge or not.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your interpretation is political whether you acknowledge or not.

For your info:

Gathering of Israel - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your interpretation is political whether you acknowledge or not.

All we say in this age for or against the Bab and Baha'u'llah, also becomes our Judgement, whether we acknowledge that or not.

Regards Tony

 

[Starlight]

Of course the Bahai faith should be legal in Iran. All people should be allowed to believe in the religion they want to follow

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course the Bahai faith should be legal in Iran. All people should be allowed to believe in the religion they want to follow

Imagine a world where we unite to work together. You comment brought this verse from Baha'u'llah to mind.

"..We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind…."

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

My experience is people who speak of love and kindness too much, always stand with oppressors against oppressed, and usually never the other way. But what do I know.

But what do I know.

That is, from my POV, the first useful line I see of you here

Perhaps hate and retribution and belief in hell suppose to have a place to make us fear God and side with oppressed. But what do I know.

But what do I know.

That is, from my POV, the second useful line I see of you here

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth there is so many satellite channels that are against Iranian government but are allowed in Iran.

Sunnis have Mosques. They even have an area where they use to be minority but now are becoming majority. Some of it has to do with them having a lot of kids, and some of it has to do with them winning in propaganda.

They of course are allowed to advocate their faith. Same with Christians and Jews.

This is somewhat of myth that west has propagated that there is no free speech allowed in Iran. It does house arrest certain people if they harm society with speech and advocate harmful actions by society.

And you are diluting what you said. You said they were rewarded by God with Israel while Muslims including Shiites being punished now by God by the events we are facing.

For your information

"It is currently illegal to distribute Christian literature in the official language, Persian.[30]"
Christianity in Iran - Wikipedia

In May 2019 Iran's Intelligence Minister Mahmoud Alavi expressed concern over Iranian Muslims converting to Christianity and said the Intelligence Ministry have dispatched agents active in "countering the advocates of Christianity" to areas where there is a potential for people to convert.[58]
Christianity in Iran - Wikipedia

"Non-Shiite groups are generally considered rivals, conspirators or threats to achieving the regime’s ideological goals."

Iran’s Sunnis face further repression under Raisi

 

[danieldemol]

You not representing my argument. I'm not talking about punishment in next world.

So its ok for you to do it at one point in time and not for another people to do it at another point in time - special pleading.

Also I think you conceal much about the Quran's threats of punishment for people in this life, for example how do you interpret the Surah of Hud?
In Surah Hud 11:37 Noah promises God's punishment in this world.
In 11:57 Hud promises another people will succeed His people, how is that different to promising that Israelis would succeed Palestinians for example?
In 11:60 They were pursued by a curse in this life and on the day of judgement.
In 11:65 Saleh promises punishment in this world
In 11:81 -82 Punishment in this world delivered to the people of Lut
In 11:94 People of Shuaib destroyed in this world by a mighty blast
In 11:99 People of pharoah followed by a curse in this life and the hereafter.

Also do you accept the common Shiah belief in the events of Al-Mubahala? In it the Christians were saying their belief that Jesus is God. It is not a lie to say something you believe to be true, so in it the curse of God was essentially being prayed for against Christians for having different beliefs;
Reference What Happened At Al-Mubahala? A shia resource where Mubahala is explained in English from about 1:50 on.

I'm talking about political events and interpreting them in a way that seeks to take side against national security of Iran. If your whole religion thinks sanctions for example is part of God's punishment on a people, are you going to help the country as opposed to make things worse?

Does not necessarily follow. If you believe an action is the action of an Omnipotent God you may believe you are powerless to effect it one way or the other.

Besides, I think you are projecting the fact that you are prepared to help factions in their millitant struggles against the national interests of the Great Satan (the US) and the Little Satan (Israel), such as supporting Hezbollah even though they fire rockets into Israel at random targets, not only at millitary targets.

See the difference in Quran, where Rome was in a severe state of oppression but God promised he would help them and they would come out victorious after some years, and that believers would celebrate.

Ah so you are cherrypicking one event amongst numerous threats of punishment in this life, but can you even provide a reference to the original events in your translation of the Quran so that we may judge the context of that single isolated event? And if the peoples of the book (Christians) can be in a severe state of spiritual oppresion and promised a victory against the Muslims with believers celebrating, why couldn't the peoples of the book (Jews) be promised a victory against the Muslims with believers celebrating? (can you see your special pleading?)

Most Muslims including Shiites haven't even heard of Bahai faith.

I doubt that to be true, in Iran anti-Bahai polemics are published, "The main accusations leveled against the Bahais may be found in the extensive anti-Bahai polemical literature published in Iran since the last century (see the bibliography)". See Welcome to Encyclopaedia Iranica.

So they may not have good information about the Baha'i faith, but they would have to be living under a rock not to have heard the name Baha'i I think.

In my opinion

 

[firedragon]

So they may not have good information about the Baha'i faith, but they would have to be living under a rock not to have heard the name Baha'i I think.

Daniel. Most Muslims around the world don't know about the Bahai faith. You are making conjecture because you know about their faith either through the internet or the forum. And most of the world are not living under a rock.

I had no clue about the Bahai faith until maybe a year or so ago. In this forum I saw a sudden emergence of Bahai evangelists. Heavy. Those days most of the active participants were Christian. Then it turned into atheists. And in the midst of it, the Bahai's were very active. So I opened a thread to learn about their faith, and only then I even knew about Bahaullah, Shirazi, their literature, history, etc etc etc.

In Iran, people know about the Bahai's a little but predominantly they don't care a tad. I have never met a single Muslim in my life who knew anything about the Bahai faith. I do remember long ago someone in this forum mentioned the Bahai faith. Many many years ago. Actually, someone mentioned Bahaullah. But I didn't ponder over it much. I have glanced over Babiyya movement in encyclopaedia's prior to engaging with the Bahai's in this forum and learning about their faith. That's it.

 

[firedragon]

So its ok for you to do it at one point in time and not for another people to do it at another point in time - special pleading.

Also I think you conceal much about the Quran's threats of punishment for people in this life, for example how do you interpret the Surah of Hud?
In Surah Hud 11:37 Noah promises God's punishment in this world.
In 11:57 Hud promises another people will succeed His people, how is that different to promising that Israelis would succeed Palestinians for example?
In 11:60 They were pursued by a curse in this life and on the day of judgement.
In 11:65 Saleh promises punishment in this world
In 11:81 -82 Punishment in this world delivered to the people of Lut
In 11:94 People of Shuaib destroyed in this world by a mighty blast
In 11:99 People of pharoah followed by a curse in this life and the hereafter.

Also do you accept the common Shiah belief in the events of Al-Mubahala? In it the Christians were saying their belief that Jesus is God. It is not a lie to say something you believe to be true, so in it the curse of God was essentially being prayed for against Christians for having different beliefs;
Reference What Happened At Al-Mubahala? A shia resource where Mubahala is explained in English from about 1:50 on.


Does not necessarily follow. If you believe an action is the action of an Omnipotent God you may believe you are powerless to effect it one way or the other.

Besides, I think you are projecting the fact that you are prepared to help factions in their millitant struggles against the national interests of the Great Satan (the US) and the Little Satan (Israel), such as supporting Hezbollah even though they fire rockets into Israel at random targets, not only at millitary targets.


Ah so you are cherrypicking one event amongst numerous threats of punishment in this life, but can you even provide a reference to the original events in your translation of the Quran so that we may judge the context of that single isolated event? And if the peoples of the book (Christians) can be in a severe state of spiritual oppresion and promised a victory against the Muslims with believers celebrating, why couldn't the peoples of the book (Jews) be promised a victory against the Muslims with believers celebrating? (can you see your special pleading?)


I doubt that to be true, in Iran anti-Bahai polemics are published, "The main accusations leveled against the Bahais may be found in the extensive anti-Bahai polemical literature published in Iran since the last century (see the bibliography)". See Welcome to Encyclopaedia Iranica.

So they may not have good information about the Baha'i faith, but they would have to be living under a rock not to have heard the name Baha'i I think.

In my opinion

A very hard effort at getting into an irrelevant discussion to steer it away to another hate thread. Shameless.

 

[danieldemol]

Daniel. Most Muslims around the world don't know about the Bahai faith. You are making conjecture because you know about their faith either through the internet or the forum. And most of the world are not living under a rock.

I had no clue about the Bahai faith until maybe a year or so ago. In this forum I saw a sudden emergence of Bahai evangelists. Heavy. Those days most of the active participants were Christian. Then it turned into atheists. And in the midst of it, the Bahai's were very active. So I opened a thread to learn about their faith, and only then I even knew about Bahaullah, Shirazi, their literature, history, etc etc etc.

In Iran, people know about the Bahai's a little but predominantly they don't care a tad. I have never met a single Muslim in my life who knew anything about the Bahai faith. I do remember long ago someone in this forum mentioned the Bahai faith. Many many years ago. Actually, someone mentioned Bahaullah. But I didn't ponder over it much. I have glanced over Babiyya movement in encyclopaedia's prior to engaging with the Bahai's in this forum and learning about their faith. That's it.

Sure if you are talking about Muslims around the world, but @Link was talking about sanctions on Iran being a divine chastisement.
Within the context of Iran they broadcast anti-Bahai polemics over the airwaves, "They approved and coordinated the anti-Baháʼí campaign to incite public passion against the Baháʼís started in 1955 and included the spreading of anti-Baháʼí propaganda in national radio stations and official newspapers.[12]"

Source: Persecution of Baháʼís - Wikipedia

So even though I acknowledge that there understanding of the Baha'i faith is probably minimal even in an Iranian context it remains that they are likely in Iran to have heard of Bahaism in name through the polemics published over the airwaves and by state sponsored media.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

A very hard effort at getting into an irrelevant discussion to steer it away to another hate thread. Shameless.

You have not expressed any disapproval of Links efforts to get an entire faith banned and you are accusing me of hatred for pointing out the similarity of Links beliefs to that which he is objecting and yet you have the audacity to accuse me of being the one spreading hate and shamlessness.

Physician heal thyself.

Each and every point I raised is directly relevant to Links attacks on the Baha'is and if you think otherwise how about instead of hand waving it away with ad-hominem you actually bother pointing out how it is irrelevant to Links beliefs.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Sure if you are talking about Muslims around the world, but @Link was talking about sanctions on Iran being a divine chastisement.
Within the context of Iran they broadcast anti-Bahai polemics over the airwaves, "They approved and coordinated the anti-Baháʼí campaign to incite public passion against the Baháʼís started in 1955 and included the spreading of anti-Baháʼí propaganda in national radio stations and official newspapers.[12]"

If you ask any Iranian in the street, they will have no clue about it.

So even though I acknowledge that there understanding of the Baha'i faith is probably minimal even in an Iranian context it remains that they are likely in Iran to have heard of Bahaism in name through the polemics published over the airwaves and by state sponsored media.

Very rarely.

You have not expressed any disapproval of Links efforts to get an entire faith banned and you are accusing me of hatred for pointing out the similarity of Links beliefs to that which he is objecting and yet you have the audacity to accuse me of being the one spreading hate and shamlessness.

Ask him.

Each and every point I raised is directly relevant to Links attacks on the Baha'is and if you think otherwise how about instead of hand waving it away with ad-hominem you actually bother pointing out how it is irrelevant to Links beliefs.

In my opinion.

Not really. The post I responded to is irrelevant to the topic. You did address the OP in one post though. Probably you were the only person who actually addressed the OP. But this is irrelevant. Just you know, spreading some information about Islam that you like to spread you know. It's common really now.

 

[danieldemol]

Ask him.

Ask him what?

Not really. The post I responded to is irrelevant to the topic. You did address the OP in one post though.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

But this is irrelevant. Just you know, spreading some information about Islam that you like to spread you know. It's common really now.

This is not about "Islam", it is about Link's interpretation of Islam just so you are not conflating your own interpretation of Islam with the interpretation of others.

With respect to Link's Islam you are simply hand waving here, not actually addressing the points raised in post #231 within the context of Links interpretation.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Ask him what?


Thanks for the acknowledgement.



This is not about "Islam", it is about Link's interpretation of Islam just so you are not conflating your own interpretation of Islam with the interpretation of others.

With respect to Link's Islam you are simply hand waving here, not actually addressing the points raised in post #231 within the context of Links interpretation.

In my opinion.

I dont care who's "islam" or "your islam" you love to discuss. Irrelevant.

 

[danieldemol]

I dont care who's "islam" or "your islam" you love to discuss. Irrelevant.

This conversation is not about you and what you care about, it is about Link and his interpretation of Islam and why that interpretation makes it a hypocrisy to call for the banning of the Baha'i faith.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

This conversation is not about you and what you care about, it is about Link and his interpretation of Islam

Nah. It's not. Maybe you didn't read the OP.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Actually, the Bahais are very consistently the greatest non-Muslim defenders of Islam and Islamic communities.

They have their own reasons for that, and I don't think those are very laudable, but that is how it goes.

It’s quite simple. No one should be demonised, persecuted, oppressed or discriminated against for their beliefs. Many who attack Islam do so by painting terrorists and good Muslims with the same brush which is unacceptable. Also we believe in Muhammad and the Quran. We read from all the Holy Books of all the major Faiths in our services all over the world and even the symbols of these religions are carved into the architecture of all our Baha’i Temples. So an attack on Muhammad, the Quran and Muslims is an attack against our brothers and sisters. Our World Centre is in Israel because Baha’u’llah died there after being exiled there by the Ottoman Empire. Nothing to do with politics. So people are free to attack us if they so wish as we are the ‘new kid on the block’ so expect suspicion and mistrust but I personally can’t tolerate Muhammad being called a pedophile or all Muslims evil or Islam a terrorist religion because I know that to be false and untrue.

Should the Baha’i Faith be banned? That depends. Are we a danger to the world? Are we criminals or terrorists or building a massive army? If we just hold a different opinion than others is that a just and fair reason to sentence us to death, destroy our gravesites, refuse us higher education and torture us? We are accused of being spies for Israel just because our Holy places are there. People have their reasons why they despise us but we view them all as our fellow human beings and wish all well.

 

[Fool]

Your interpretation is political whether you acknowledge or not.

Most parents don't raise their children by being aggressive towards them. Islam doesn't come off as peaceful . In fact it seems to make its majority of adherents angry and controlling. A service to self type.

people base their political views off of their core belief system. Usually they are born into their belief system and thoroughly and systematically indoctrinated.

Even in your labeled peace(islam) your shiites and sunnis are infighting for dominance/control. Where is the love? Where is the peace? Where is the neighborly connection.