74x12
Well-Known Member
As long as you put faith in God before your belief in evolution. But if you say Christainity is false if it disagrees with evolution then your faith is on shaky ground.
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Christian Evolutionist debate (using scripture)
- Thread starter TheWingMan
- Start date
Balthazzar
Christian Evolutionist
What happens in 5 billion years to life on earth if evolution is false? Based on history, current events, and what we've documented of life and adaptation, etc. It's either a faith based theory per James' definition of faith or a faith based theory without hope, substance or evidence to support the adoption of.
What do you think?
74x12
Well-Known Member
I don't think we'll get that far. I think Jesus Christ will return before then.
What do you mean by James' definition of faith? You mean proving faith by works? I don't really see the connection.
I'm not sure.
Balthazzar
Christian Evolutionist
I mean faith by substance of hope evidenced in life.
So you're not an evolutionist? I am - I think much of evolution can be verified, at least in part, in a mothers womb. The earth and atmosphere is a lot like one. Timelines seems to be a point of contention. 9 months vs millions of years - Inside/outside/inside/outside, etc. I'm seeing evolution as being ongoing births in expansion.
Christianity does not disagree with Evolution. Fundamentalists disagree with Evolution. Fundamentalism is an anti-modernity interpretation of Christianity.
Balthazzar
Christian Evolutionist
Faith in God - I will have to agree. The universe and how we relate to it as self aware entities. It's personal to each individual. I think evolution is compatible with Christianity, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian Evolutionist.
Evolution is God creating, in my view. Creation isn't a single event in the past. It's on ongoing process. And that process is evolution. Evolution is Spirit creating. Imagine that.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I do not believe it means brothers are adversaries. I believe it means that brothers are even more dependable than friends when hard times come.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe he is missing the point. Without scripture there would not likely be any Christians. Although I have to admit Norse mythology survived a long time on folk lore. Would the faith of Abraham have survived without the books of Moses?
I believe so. Every religion starts as tradition. Most Pagan faiths lack scriptures in the sense that Abrahamics have them and they existed for millennia.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe science does help to understand the Bible sometimes but also the bible can put science in perspective.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it is unique that the NT is written with assistance of the Holy Spirit who brings back to memory what was said and done. That gives a lot more accuracy than the unreliable memories of men.
Balthazzar
Christian Evolutionist
I like to say "That's Life". We're still learning the mechanics behind it all, and likely always will be in that process. Macro vs. micro vs. womb development, etc. I don't understand it, but it happens, so ...Evolution is God creating, in my view. Creation isn't a single event in the past. It's on ongoing process. And that process is evolution. Evolution is Spirit creating. Imagine that.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That sounds right.
I'll ask you then, since the other poster didn't answer me. I understand how science can put the Bible into perspective. It certainly helped do that for me. But how to you, in what ways, does the Bible put science into perspective?
A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Did Jesus believe that human beings evolved from lower species?
Matt. 19:4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
Or perhaps the question would be: can a true Christian deny any teaching of Jesus Christ? Of course, now anyone can call themselves a "Christian." Jesus Christ can tell the difference between a true Christian and an imitation Christian (Luke 6:46).
Matt. 19:4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
Or perhaps the question would be: can a true Christian deny any teaching of Jesus Christ? Of course, now anyone can call themselves a "Christian." Jesus Christ can tell the difference between a true Christian and an imitation Christian (Luke 6:46).
Yes, those who do the will of God are the children of God, taught Jesus.
I'm quite sure there were many scientific truths Jesus, as a human being who did not know everything according to his own words, was unaware of. Being the Son of God, did not mean he had magical knowledge of modern science. Divine Awareness, does not mean knowing tomorrow's lottery ticket numbers.
Are you saying we should base and limit our understanding of the world today, based upon a 1st century knowledge of the earth? If so, then I'm pretty sure Jesus would have had no idea of what a computer was, so you should get off it right now!
Jesus did not teach a lot of things we know today. That is not denying his teachings. Jesus was not a science teacher!
The way to discern a really follower of the teachings of Jesus, is not by their beliefs, but by their fruits. Jesus taught this. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their scientific knowledge.
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I see you didn't say anything about Jesus' words on the topic. Let me show you, maybe you didn't see them:
Matt. 19:4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
Are you a Christian? Do you think that Jesus would not have known if the story of Adam and Eve was a true fact about the origin of humanity?
Gen.1:27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
... 2:24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Matt. 19:4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
Are you a Christian? Do you think that Jesus would not have known if the story of Adam and Eve was a true fact about the origin of humanity?
Gen.1:27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
... 2:24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
That's not teaching science. That is making a reference to a story they were familiar with that was part of their traditional stories, in order to make a point. He was not teaching them science!
Are you familiar with the story of the good Samaritan? Jesus cited this person as an example of what it means to be a good person, versus those who only supposed they were good people because they believed the right doctrinal beliefs, and such. But was the good Samaritan an actual, historical person? No, he was not.
Does it matter if he was referring to actual history? No it does not matter, as teaching history and science was not the point. To cite that passage and say this proves Jesus did not accept what we understand as the Theory of Evolution, is to abuse scripture.
Why does it matter which religion, or none, that I choose to identify myself as? It's not what you claim, but who you are that matters. This is the teachings of Jesus. Following a religion, does not mean you are following Jesus.
To answer your question, no, I do not think Jesus was a scientist. I do not believe him citing Adam and Eve had anything whatsoever to do with a scientific question. I could speak to you about Romeo and Juliet as an example of undying love, but that does not therefore translate into me believing they were actual historical figures! That isn't the point in bringing them up, and it wasn't Jesus' point either in bringing up Adam and Eve.
As I said before, being the Son of God, does not mean Jesus understood modern science, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, computer sciences, and so forth. He was a human being of the 1st century who was flesh and blood man who ate, slept, pooped, laughed, and was able to die. So why is it so hard to accept he did not know everything? Even he himself said this, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father," as but one example of his limited knowledge.