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Love and Rebellion

The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels don't contain eyewitness accounts. My Bible says that right in the preface. Heck, the authors themselves don't even claim to be eyewitnesses. For example, the one labelled "Luke" says, "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,"

That's called hearsay, and it's most definitely not accepted in a court of law.

"Even in our modern court of law, the testimony of an eyewitness carries much weight."
Nope.

You should read this:
Eyewitness Testimony

Except you’re missing Peter, James, John, Paul,
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.”
‭‭II Peter‬ ‭1:16-18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Except you’re missing Peter, James, John, Paul,
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.”
‭‭II Peter‬ ‭1:16-18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
The Gospel of John was written around 90-100 CE. So, not an eyewitness account.
The Gospel of Peter was written around the mid-2nd Century. So, not an eyewitness.
The Gospel of James was written in the 2nd Century. So, not an eyewitness account.
1 Corinthians was written around 53-54 CE and includes claims to have seen a dead guy. Oh and this is the one where it's claimed that all these other people saw it too, but we don't get to read their accounts and for all we know, that's completely made up since we can't verify any of it. Anybody can say a bunch of people saw something but you know what that is? It's hearsay.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Not sure how this addresses my post, Christianity was spread by people spreading it around the world, often by force, other times in a more nicey-nice way via missionaries.
The point is that people die can, and do, die for things that aren't true. Something doesn't magically become true because a person really, really, really believes it..........

Christianity I find is Now spread voluntarily around the world even where spreading the gospel is banned.
Jesus really really believed in what he taught by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words. " it is written....." meaning written in the OT.
Jesus did Not voluntarily die for something that was Not true.
Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17
Sure, a lot of people don't believe in Jesus, but that does Not mean that what Jesus taught is Not true.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Christianity I find is Now spread voluntarily around the world even where spreading the gospel is banned.
Yes, via missionary work, as I mentioned. It's still spread violently in some parts of the world.

Jesus really really believed in what he taught by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words. " it is written....." meaning written in the OT.
We can't know that. Our "information" is based on unverifiable stories in old books.

People can, and do, die for things that aren't true. You realize, of course, that they may not necessarily realize it is a lie/untruth. So we can't just decide that if someone died believing in something, then that something must be true. We have to investigate much further than that.

I already gave an example but here are some more:

-People who thought COVID was a hoax, didn't take any precautions to protect themselves, then contracted COVID and died
-People in the Heaven's Gate cult who committed mass suicide thinking they were going to hitch a ride on a spacecraft trailing behind the Hale-Bop comet (these people purchased alien abduction insurance before killing themselves)


Jesus did Not voluntarily die for something that was Not true.
Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17
That's a claim from a story in an old book, that can't be verified, as far as I can tell.

Sure, a lot of people don't believe in Jesus, but that does Not mean that what Jesus taught is Not true.
Doesn't mean it is either. In fact, mere belief gives us zero information about whether or not the claims are true.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
This is a quote #115 from the Why Would Noah's Flood Have Been the Best Way for God to Cleanse the Earth? thread by F1fan that I somewhat agreed with but had a different viewpoint with some of his thoughts:



But I would like to build on those ideas with a new thread.

So, what I would like to know is: How could there actually be rebellion against God in the beginning when all his creatures were perfect in mind, body (energy body or physical body), intellect, emotions and everything? And keep in mind that according to scripture, everything that God makes and does is 100% perfect.

click here: 41 Bible verses about God, Perfection Of (knowing-jesus.com)

Also, I know that Bible believers explain this by saying that it was because of freedom of choice along with pride and selfish desire with Satan, and that with Adam and Eve, Adam loved Eve more than he loved God, but Eve was tricked and became the victim of her own selfish longings. However, in this thread, I would like to view things from two Bible verses: Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 13:8 - New International Version and Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:38-39 - New International Version.

And to get into this, I would like to make a quote from a religious article that discusses those scriptures:

The statement “love never fails” comes from best-known chapter in the Bible on love, 1 Corinthians 13. Among its many quoted phrases is a portion of verse 8, “Love never fails.”​

Love never fails, and the English Standard Version adds to our understanding of these words, translating them as “Love never ends.” The next sentence contrasts love with other spiritual gifts: “But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge are all temporary. Not so with love. Because love is a basic attribute of God (1 John 4:8) and because God is eternal, love will also be eternal. Love will never fail.​

Scripture reveals God’s eternal love for us, a love that never fails. God chose us (John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4-5), died for us (Romans 5:8), and will never leave us (Hebrews 13:5). In fact, nothing at all can separate us from God’s eternal love: “I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

The Greek word translated “fails” in the NIV is related to a verb meaning “to fall.” By saying, “Love never fails,” the Bible means that God’s type of love will not fall or falter. It is constant forever. As God says in Jeremiah 31:3, “I have loved you with an everlasting love.”​

click here: What does it mean that love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8)? | GotQuestions.org

However, from the context of those verses, it can be seen that it's not only God's love for his creatures, but it's also love by his creatures. And as can be seen from this article:

In chapter 13, Paul coaches his readers to reach for a new kind of love for each other, based on what God does for us. But we’re unable to create it in our own strength. Human love will always fail, because we are flawed, sinful people.

The closest we can come to God’s love is “agape,” which is defined as a selfless devotion to the good of others. And again, this is not something we can sustain, but must rely on God for. He will shape our hearts to love this way, and He will renew the desire when it starts to falter.​

What This Kind of Love Looks Like

Paul writes almost poetically of agape-type love in verses 4-7: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

This kind of love leaves an imprint on the world around us. We might label works motivated by agape today as “serving the community” or “missions.” But these moments can happen anywhere on any day. They have to do with provision, caring, welcoming, blessing, encouraging and equipping others.

This type of love is active, and requires our time and energy. It calls us to look for needs around us, then to commit to doing what we can to make a difference. It demands creativity, determination and dedication. Most of all, our hearts need to be aligned with God’s heart.​

click here: "Love Never Fails" - True Bible Meaning of 1 Cor. 13:8 Explained (biblestudytools.com)

Therefore, it doesn't make sense to me how love failed with some of God's perfect creatures and they decided to rebel against him, even though, the Bible states the principle that love never fails. Therefore, it shouldn't have failed with them either.

Your thoughts?


In short agency.

we are given the power to choose. Satan et al rebelled.

God’s love is off the charts powerful, however He can’t or won’t violate our ability to choose.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
In short agency.

we are given the power to choose. Satan et al rebelled.

God’s love is off the charts powerful, however He can’t or won’t violate our ability to choose.

Well, okay. But what I keep asking is why would creatures that were supposed to have loved God, failed in their love for God since love never fails? Therefore, this whole thing about Satan rebelling and then deceiving Eve to rebel in order to get Adam to rebel just doesn't make a lot of sense... Please explain. Because I've heard the generic explanation that you used a 1000 times before.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Well, okay. But what I keep asking is why would creatures that were supposed to have loved God, failed in their love for God since love never fails? Therefore, this whole thing about Satan rebelling and then deceiving Eve to rebel in order to get Adam to rebel just doesn't make a lot of sense... Please explain. Because I've heard the generic explanation that you used a 1000 times before.
Love AKA charity that never fails is the pure perfect love of Christ
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Well, okay. But what I keep asking is why would creatures that were supposed to have loved God, failed in their love for God since love never fails? Therefore, this whole thing about Satan rebelling and then deceiving Eve to rebel in order to get Adam to rebel just doesn't make a lot of sense... Please explain. Because I've heard the generic explanation that you used a 1000 times before.
Okay it sounds like what is hard for you to get is the role of the fall in Gods plan. The following is the short version though it might not seem so.


1 Cor 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


If there was no fall there would have been no need for the savior.

I suppose some imagine God setting up eden plating a few special trees and breaking out into sheer panic when Adam and Eve eat the wrong fruit.


I don’t see it that way.

God who is perfect created a flawless world. In His infinite wisdom He set the stage for the fall. The fall brought both good and bad things into the world. As we see from Peter is was the plan.


(Warning tacky analogy. )I buy my kids a nice lego set it is perfect and as long as they don’t open the box it will remain perfect. Also they can’t really experience what is means to play legos while it is in the box. I warn them that if they open the box they will have pain and things will be lost. (Gen 2:17).

I know they will open the box and have the experiences that come from that. My jerk neighbor wants to ruin everything and he comes by and talks my kids into opening the box, but since I’m a smart guy I planned for this ( Peter above) I have the resources to correct all the problems they cause. I also also know that they can’t become master builders if they don’t lean via experience how things work.

Gen 3: 22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”


Mankind became imperfect and they also gained a Godlike knowledge they did not have.


So in short The fall was as much a part of God’s plan as the creation and the sacrifice of the Savior.


A related concept that is hinted at, but honestly not overly clear in the Bible is opposites (job 2:10, Eccl 3) this is taught a lot more outside the Bible. The core notion is that you can’t have good unless there is bad.


In order for me to choose to follow Christ there must be another option. For all of us to learn and reach our potential we have to be in a challenging environment where we can choose.


Coming back around the Love of God does not fail, but it does not force. All the help patience forgiveness etc that God offers will never force me. One can rebel as we see with Satan, Judas etc.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Okay it sounds like what is hard for you to get is the role of the fall in Gods plan. The following is the short version though it might not seem so.


1 Cor 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


If there was no fall there would have been no need for the savior.

I suppose some imagine God setting up eden plating a few special trees and breaking out into sheer panic when Adam and Eve eat the wrong fruit.


I don’t see it that way.

God who is perfect created a flawless world. In His infinite wisdom He set the stage for the fall. The fall brought both good and bad things into the world. As we see from Peter is was the plan.


(Warning tacky analogy. )I buy my kids a nice lego set it is perfect and as long as they don’t open the box it will remain perfect. Also they can’t really experience what is means to play legos while it is in the box. I warn them that if they open the box they will have pain and things will be lost. (Gen 2:17).

I know they will open the box and have the experiences that come from that. My jerk neighbor wants to ruin everything and he comes by and talks my kids into opening the box, but since I’m a smart guy I planned for this ( Peter above) I have the resources to correct all the problems they cause. I also also know that they can’t become master builders if they don’t lean via experience how things work.

Gen 3: 22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”


Mankind became imperfect and they also gained a Godlike knowledge they did not have.


So in short The fall was as much a part of God’s plan as the creation and the sacrifice of the Savior.


A related concept that is hinted at, but honestly not overly clear in the Bible is opposites (job 2:10, Eccl 3) this is taught a lot more outside the Bible. The core notion is that you can’t have good unless there is bad.


In order for me to choose to follow Christ there must be another option. For all of us to learn and reach our potential we have to be in a challenging environment where we can choose.

I see. So what it sounds like you are saying is that God's real legacy was to allow evil, horror, murder, death, sickness, violence, corruption, war and blood shed in order to bring about peace, love, and happiness, and that we must understand that it was impossible for God to bring that about unless he allowed the opposite of that to exist first.

Also, which verse in Ecclesiastes 3 were you referring to?

Coming back around the Love of God does not fail, but it does not force. All the help patience forgiveness etc that God offers will never force me. One can rebel as we see with Satan, Judas etc.

But what I don't understand is why didn't Satan (when he was an angel) and Adam & Eve love God in the first place? And I could understand why Judas could fall short when it came to loving God since he was already handicapped by sin and imperfection in his makeup, however, I don't understand why Satan, and A&E didn't love God. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Love AKA charity that never fails is the pure perfect love of Christ

I appreciate your Christian opinion on this, but did you read another Christian opinion concerning this in my OP showing that humans can also have and demonstrate agape love?

In chapter 13, Paul coaches his readers to reach for a new kind of love for each other, based on what God does for us. But we’re unable to create it in our own strength. Human love will always fail, because we are flawed, sinful people.

The closest we can come to God’s love is “agape,” which is defined as a selfless devotion to the good of others. And again, this is not something we can sustain, but must rely on God for. He will shape our hearts to love this way, and He will renew the desire when it starts to falter.

What This Kind of Love Looks Like

Paul writes almost poetically of agape-type love in verses 4-7: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

This kind of love leaves an imprint on the world around us. We might label works motivated by agape today as “serving the community” or “missions.” But these moments can happen anywhere on any day. They have to do with provision, caring, welcoming, blessing, encouraging and equipping others.

This type of love is active, and requires our time and energy. It calls us to look for needs around us, then to commit to doing what we can to make a difference. It demands creativity, determination and dedication. Most of all, our hearts need to be aligned with God’s heart.

emphasis is mine

click here: "Love Never Fails" - True Bible Meaning of 1 Cor. 13:8 Explained (biblestudytools.com)
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I see. So what it sounds like you are saying is that God's real legacy was to allow evil, horror, murder, death, sickness, violence, corruption, war and blood shed in order to bring about peace, love, and happiness, and that we must understand that it was impossible for God to bring that about unless he allowed the opposite of that to exist first.

Also, which verse in Ecclesiastes 3 were you referring to?



But what I don't understand is why didn't Satan (when he was an angel) and Adam & Eve love God in the first place? And I could understand why Judas could fall short when it came to loving God since he was already handicapped by sin and imperfection in his makeup, however, I don't understand why Satan, and A&E didn't love God. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

So yes in order for me to choose peace there must be an option of war. Adam and Eve loved God. Satan no.
I appreciate your Christian opinion on this, but did you read another Christian opinion concerning this in my OP showing that humans can also have and demonstrate agape love?



emphasis is mine

click here: "Love Never Fails" - True Bible Meaning of 1 Cor. 13:8 Explained (biblestudytools.com)
Forms of love are complex and while English is great in many areas it stinks with love.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
So yes in order for me to choose peace there must be an option of war. Adam and Eve loved God. Satan no.

Wow! That's deep. Also, that is exactly what F1fan has been saying.,, But, wow, that's deep! SMH :anguished: But why did A&E's love for God fail. And why didn't the angel who became Satan love God?

Forms of love are complex and while English is great in many areas it stinks with love.

Yeah, but that doesn't address what I was saying about the other Christian's opinion/view point of what agape love is. Because in essence, all that you are saying is that you're discarding the other Christian's point of view because you don't think that their understanding of the original language of (1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NIV - Love is patient, love is kind. It does - Bible Gateway) is sufficient. Also, if that's the case, then how does anyone understand the Bible, unless they are a scholar or is proficient in the ancient Greek and Aramaic languages? ...Are you?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Wow! That's deep. Also, that is exactly what F1fan has been saying.,, But, wow, that's deep! SMH :anguished: But why did A&E's love for God fail. And why didn't the angel who became Satan love God?



Yeah, but that doesn't address what I was saying about the other Christian's opinion/view point of what agape love is. Because in essence, all that you are saying is that you're discarding the other Christian's point of view because you don't think that their understanding of the original language of (1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NIV - Love is patient, love is kind. It does - Bible Gateway) is sufficient. Also, if that's the case, then how does anyone understand the Bible, unless they are a scholar or is proficient in the ancient Greek and Aramaic languages? ...Are you?

The Bible is tough at times. I’m not an expert on the languages, but try to read from those that are.

Satan sought to overthrow God. He failed. How could he not see the benefit of following God vs staging a rebellion? I really don’t think that has been well explained. There some reference to his being proud etc but I’ve not seen your specific question addressed.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The Bible is tough at times. I’m not an expert on the languages, but try to read from those that are.

So, how would you know if the Christian website quote that I posted had the correct point of view or not? Or are you just disagreeing with it because it's different from your own point of view and understanding of those verses?

Satan sought to overthrow God. He failed. How could he not see the benefit of following God vs staging a rebellion?

Well, that's the $64,000 question.

I really don’t think that has been well explained. There some reference to his being proud etc but I’ve not seen your specific question addressed.

That's because there is no answer and there is no good explanation. But instead, the Satan story provides an explanation for human curiosity as to why there are so many things screwed up in life... A "scapegoat" story if you will. That's all it is because there's no good reason why Satan would not have loved and appreciated his creator and the life that his creator bestowed upon him.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
So, how would you know if the Christian website quote that I posted had the correct point of view or not? Or are you just disagreeing with it because it's different from your own point of view and understanding of those verses?



Well, that's the $64,000 question.



That's because there is no answer and there is no good explanation. But instead, the Satan story provides an explanation for human curiosity as to why there are so many things screwed up in life... A "scapegoat" story if you will. That's all it is because there's no good reason why Satan would not have loved and appreciated his creator and the life that his creator bestowed upon him.

On the plus side God has restored His church to the Earth. There is a living prophet who can give us direction as needed. This is a definitive answer for the tough spots and challenges as to what did verse X mean.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
And how do you know that?



I don't understand what you are saying.


God offers confirmation of things. Its not too different than how I learned to use a telephone. I was told how it works, I tried it out and have great confidence is in the use of a telephone.

Having prophets and such they can give answers to tough questions. We could debate all day long many questions in literature like "Why not fly the Eagle to Mordor and dive bomb the ring into Mt. Doom?"

If we could ask Tolkin directly we could know his reasons.

Prophets have the ability to get such information from God and speak authoritatively on an issue. (Almost like how the Supreme Court should operate if not for all the politicizing).

Matters of doctrine are not just opinion X vs. Y .
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
God offers confirmation of things. Its not too different than how I learned to use a telephone. I was told how it works, I tried it out and have great confidence is in the use of a telephone.

But you are comparing apples to oranges because learning about, understanding, and agreeing with a religion is vastly different from learning how to use a telephone.

Having prophets and such they can give answers to tough questions. We could debate all day long many questions in literature like "Why not fly the Eagle to Mordor and dive bomb the ring into Mt. Doom?"

If we could ask Tolkin directly we could know his reasons.

Prophets have the ability to get such information from God and speak authoritatively on an issue. (Almost like how the Supreme Court should operate if not for all the politicizing).

Matters of doctrine are not just opinion X vs. Y .

Well, actually they are. Because the Pentecostal down the street, or the Seventh Day Adventist around the corner, or the Jehovah Witness on the other side of town could have a vastly different interpretation of that so-called information from God, where one Christian denomination would call the other Chirstian denomination a cult or a false Christian religion.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
But you are comparing apples to oranges because learning about, understanding, and agreeing with a religion is vastly different from learning how to use a telephone.



Well, actually they are. Because the Pentecostal down the street, or the Seventh Day Adventist around the corner, or the Jehovah Witness on the other side of town could have a vastly different interpretation of that so-called information from God, where one Christian denomination would call the other Chirstian denomination a cult or a false Christian religion.

Things related to God can be a bit more complex, but the core concepts are the same. We hear of something, we try it out, see that it works and we have more knowledge.

Sadly there is a lot of disagreement. There are people selling snake oil of many types. This does not mean there are no real medicines.
One does have to learn for themselves. God does answer prayers. Not always in the most obvious was or on our wished for time table.

I’m trying to grow some corn in my back yard. It will take months for it to be ready, but in just a few weeks I can see that things are growing.
 
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