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Should Western governments end no fault divorce?

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I see the parties involved as best understanding
their own reasons for divorcing, whether it's hating
each other, fearing each other, abandonment, child
abuse, or simply wanting to move on to a better
relationship with someone else.
Courts handle assigning obligations to children.

To dismiss reasons as toothpaste issues is....
BohOOHoohOOHooohOOOOHoooohOOOOhoooohgus!

Hollywood has produced many such.

In cases of abuse, infidelity, abandonment etc. There is fault. The ease with which the arrangement that protects the child is abandoned is concerning. Top 7 places to get a quickie divorce - AvvoStories

In as little as 30 days. You'd be hard pressed to get a new appointment with a dentist or therapist that fast.

There are good reasons for divorce, but making it too casual it costing our society massively.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Sadly, 75% of kids don't see their dad a year after the divorce. You can't force people to want to be there, but you can force them to at least provide money.

And that only to a degree, but even if dad is great with the money kids need more than just food and clothes.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I notice a lack of data for that claim.
Have links?
I observe something entirely different.
Relationships after the first (a learning experience)
are generally better...more stable, less strife.
from the summary of Popenoes book


It might work okay for mom and dad, but its bad for Jr. (on average there are many great blended families out there).

"living with one natural and one step parent 40 times as likely to become a child abuse statistic." citing Carl N. Degler, at odds (8-9).

§ The effect of not having the biological father in the home is devastating to children emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Based on the research findings, a strong case can be made that paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment today. Social research traces increased levels of crime and delinquency, premature sexuality and out-of-wedlock pregnancy, the growing rates of child abuse and many other social problems to fatherlessness. Children of divorce and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure. Even remarriage and step-parenting do not heal the wounds.

§ Step families. (33)

    • 75% of divorced men remarry.
    • What divorced fathers do instead of parent their own children is to parent their stepchildren; commonly called "transient father syndrome", "serial parenting", and "child swapping."(33)
    • Far from providing a solution to the erosion of fatherhood, stepfamilies are very much a part of the problem. Step fathering acts very much to diminish contact between fathers and biological children. *(33)
    • In these new families, stepfathers take a less active role in parenting than do typical custodial biological fathers. *(33)
    • "Even after two years disengagement by the stepparen,t disengagement is the most common parenting style...characterized by low levels of involvement and rapport, and a lack of control, discipline, and monitoring of the stepchild's behavior and activities."*(33)
    • 62% of remarried women under age 40 will eventually divorce. 10% of remarriages without stepchildren and 17% with children end in divorce within 3 years. (33)
    • Not only is the quality of' family life in step families typically inferior to that of biological-parent families, but the children of step families face a greater chance of family breakup than they did in their original families. *(33)
    • 15% of children will go through two family disruptions before coming of age. *(33)

    § Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

    • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
    • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
    • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
    • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
    • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
    • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
    § Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

    o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

    o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

    § Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

    o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

    o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

    - 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

    - 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)

    § Children who grow up with only one biological parent are

    • 3 times more likely to have a child out of wedlock. (56)
    • 2.5 times more likely to become teen mothers. (56)
    • 2 times as likely to drop out of high school. (56)
    • 1.4 times more likely to be out of school and work. *(56)
    • 2-3 times more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems. *(57)
    • Children living with single mothers or with mothers and step fathers were more likely to have repeated a grade of school, to have been expelled, and to have elevated scores for health vulnerability. *(57)
    • Women who have spent time in single-parent families as children are more likely to marry and bear children early, to give birth before marriage, and to have their own marriages break up. *(57)



§ Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

  • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
  • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
  • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
  • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
  • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
  • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
§ Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

§ Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

- 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

- 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)


§ One problem of divorce-effects research is causation...McLanahan aptly summarized...the prevailing view: "While some of the problems associated with single parenthood predate parents' separation, others do not. On balance the average child does worse, not better, after a divorce. "* Much of the "worse," it is fair to add, is caused by fatherlessness. (59)

o Children of divorce perform more poorly on a number of assessments(57)-

- Parents' ratings of hostility toward adults, peer popularity, nightmares, and anxiety.

- Teachers' ratings of school-related behavior and mental health including dependency, anxiety, aggression, withdrawal, inattention, peer popularity, and self-control.

- Scores in reading, spelling, and math.

- School performance indices including grades in reading and math as well as repeating a school grade.

- Physical health ratings.

- Referral to the school psychologist.

- The negative differential effects of divorce on children and young adolescents were long term."*(57-58)


There's a bit
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
from the summary of Popenoes book


It might work okay for mom and dad, but its bad for Jr. (on average there are many great blended families out there).

"living with one natural and one step parent 40 times as likely to become a child abuse statistic." citing Carl N. Degler, at odds (8-9).

§ The effect of not having the biological father in the home is devastating to children emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Based on the research findings, a strong case can be made that paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment today. Social research traces increased levels of crime and delinquency, premature sexuality and out-of-wedlock pregnancy, the growing rates of child abuse and many other social problems to fatherlessness. Children of divorce and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure. Even remarriage and step-parenting do not heal the wounds.

§ Step families. (33)

    • 75% of divorced men remarry.
    • What divorced fathers do instead of parent their own children is to parent their stepchildren; commonly called "transient father syndrome", "serial parenting", and "child swapping."(33)
    • Far from providing a solution to the erosion of fatherhood, stepfamilies are very much a part of the problem. Step fathering acts very much to diminish contact between fathers and biological children. *(33)
    • In these new families, stepfathers take a less active role in parenting than do typical custodial biological fathers. *(33)
    • "Even after two years disengagement by the stepparen,t disengagement is the most common parenting style...characterized by low levels of involvement and rapport, and a lack of control, discipline, and monitoring of the stepchild's behavior and activities."*(33)
    • 62% of remarried women under age 40 will eventually divorce. 10% of remarriages without stepchildren and 17% with children end in divorce within 3 years. (33)
    • Not only is the quality of' family life in step families typically inferior to that of biological-parent families, but the children of step families face a greater chance of family breakup than they did in their original families. *(33)
    • 15% of children will go through two family disruptions before coming of age. *(33)

    § Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

    • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
    • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
    • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
    • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
    • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
    • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
    § Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

    o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

    o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

    § Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

    o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

    o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

    - 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

    - 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)

    § Children who grow up with only one biological parent are

    • 3 times more likely to have a child out of wedlock. (56)
    • 2.5 times more likely to become teen mothers. (56)
    • 2 times as likely to drop out of high school. (56)
    • 1.4 times more likely to be out of school and work. *(56)
    • 2-3 times more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems. *(57)
    • Children living with single mothers or with mothers and step fathers were more likely to have repeated a grade of school, to have been expelled, and to have elevated scores for health vulnerability. *(57)
    • Women who have spent time in single-parent families as children are more likely to marry and bear children early, to give birth before marriage, and to have their own marriages break up. *(57)

§ Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

  • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
  • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
  • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
  • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
  • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
  • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
§ Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

§ Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

- 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

- 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)


§ One problem of divorce-effects research is causation...McLanahan aptly summarized...the prevailing view: "While some of the problems associated with single parenthood predate parents' separation, others do not. On balance the average child does worse, not better, after a divorce. "* Much of the "worse," it is fair to add, is caused by fatherlessness. (59)

o Children of divorce perform more poorly on a number of assessments(57)-

- Parents' ratings of hostility toward adults, peer popularity, nightmares, and anxiety.

- Teachers' ratings of school-related behavior and mental health including dependency, anxiety, aggression, withdrawal, inattention, peer popularity, and self-control.

- Scores in reading, spelling, and math.

- School performance indices including grades in reading and math as well as repeating a school grade.

- Physical health ratings.

- Referral to the school psychologist.

- The negative differential effects of divorce on children and young adolescents were long term."*(57-58)


There's a bit
Perusing the internet, I don't see him applying
the same analysis to the alternative to divorce,
ie, forcing the marriage to continue.
Banning or inhibiting divorce has consequences....
- Abandonment without either spouse being able to remarry.
- Forcing mutually hostile people to continue marriage.

To advocate for one alternative while ignoring the
other isn't really analysis...it's bias confirmation.
And then there's the liberty question, ie, should we
give government the power to enforce marriages
between adults when their feelings change?
I'm loath to give government that much more power.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Perusing the internet, I don't see him applying
the same analysis to the alternative to divorce,
ie, forcing the marriage to continue.
Banning or inhibiting divorce has consequences....
- Abandonment without either spouse being able to remarry.
- Forcing mutually hostile people to continue marriage.

To advocate for one alternative while ignoring the
other isn't really analysis...it's bias confirmation.
And then there's the liberty question, ie, should we
give government the power to enforce marriages
between adults when their feelings change?
I'm loath to give government that much more power.

Any place we draw a line has risks.

frankly given the relative ease with which abandonment or infidelity can be done, it’s not a supper high bar. And again his suggestion is for it to only be when minor children are in the home.

The enforcement of a legal contract is one of the few valid powers of government. The child benefits from that contract. And as we see the cost to society is massive also. Making the exiting of the contact a challenge seems reasonable compared to most other regulations now in place.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Any place we draw a line has risks.
But the total deleterious effects of risks
must be quantitatively compared.
frankly given the relative ease with which abandonment or infidelity can be done, it’s not a supper high bar. And again his suggestion is for it to only be when minor children are in the home.
I haven't personally encountered any couple who
wanted to end a marriage with children cavalierly.
I know 1 childless couple who ended theirs because
they just fell out of love. So I'm skeptical that it's
a significant problem.
The enforcement of a legal contract is one of the few valid powers of government.
When contracts run counter to public
policy, courts will invalidate them.
The child benefits from that contract. And as we see the cost to society is massive also. Making the exiting of the contact a challenge seems reasonable compared to most other regulations now in place.
In a divorce involving children, a judge
would ensure children's welfare.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fatherhood research AKA stable families.(short version the system wont accept 22 pages)

§ The effect of not having the biological father in the home is devastating to children emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Based on the research findings, a strong case can be made that paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment today. Social research traces increased levels of crime and delinquency, premature sexuality and out-of-wedlock pregnancy, the growing rates of child abuse and many other social problems to fatherlessness. Children of divorce and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure. Even remarriage and step-parenting do not heal the wounds.

Fathers teach children two key character traits: self-control and empathy. People with antisocial and criminal tendencies lack both. The single-mother's predicament to provide effective parenting in this regard is borne out by social science findings. Boys who are father deprived early in life are likely to engage later in rigidly over compensatory masculine behaviors. The incidence of crimes against property and people, including child abuse and family violence, is relatively high in societies where the rearing of young children is considered to be an exclusively female endeavor.
For men, more than for women, marriage and parenthood are strongly interlinked. Men need cultural pressure to stay engaged with their children, and that cultural pressure has long been called marriage.
Fathers have a unique and irreplaceable role to play in child development. Fathers are not merely would-be mothers. The two sexes are different to the core, and each is necessary—culturally as well as biologically—for the optimal development of a human being.The most important and enduring dimension of fathering has to do with a child's feelings. Children need to feel recognized and accepted by their fathers; they need to feel that they are special. More than just needing their fathers, children need a committed male and female couple--a mother and a father in a joint partnership—to provide them with dependable and enduring love and attention at least during their growing-up years. Biological fathers are more likely to be committed to the upbringing of their own children than are non-biological fathers. Human beings invest more readily in genetically related persons than in non-related persons. Being a father is much more than merely playing a social role. Engaged biological fathers care profoundly and selflessly about their own children, and such fatherly love is not something that can be transferred easily or learned from a script."Epidemiological studies and social surveys have shown that marriage has a civilizing effect independent of the selection factor (men who are willing to marry already have civilized virtues). It is not just that particularly healthy and competent and morally upright persons are more likely to marry, but that marriage actually promotes health, competence, virtue, and personal well-being.” *(76)In one of Cleveland's rough inner-city neighborhoods Responsible Fatherhood and Family Revitalization has reunited over 2,000 absent, unwed fathers with their children. Contrary to the standard theory of first finding a man a job in order to make him into a responsible father, this project has focused on convincing these men of the importance of being a good father resulting in *(76)-
- Increase from 12% being employed full-time to 62% with another 12% employed part-time. (76)
- 97% began to provide financial support for their children. (76)
- 71% had no additional children out of wedlock.*(76)
§ Trait differences include-
Aggression and activity level; cognitive skills; sensory sensitivity; sexual and reproductive behavior.(10)
  • While male proficiency rests with "things and theorems," female proficiency rests with personal relationships.(11)
  • Females most want to be "cherished" by their mates, males most want to be "needed" by theirs.(141)
§ Differences in fathering and mothering behaviors include-

  • Mothers are more able to read an infant's facial expressions, handle with tactile gentleness, soothe with the use of voice.*(11)
  • Mothers provide comfort and emotional acceptance with toddlers while men are more active and arousing in nurturing activities, foster certain physical skills and emphasize autonomy and independence. (11)
  • With older children fathers play is more likely to involve a rough-and-tumble approach.* Mothers tend to be responsive, fathers firm; mothers stress emotional security and relationships, fathers’ competition and risk taking; mothers express more concern for the child's immediate well-being, fathers concern for the child's long-run autonomy and independence.(12)
§ Both approaches are important for children in developing the need for affiliation with others while learning also to be independent. They need both "roots" and "wings"; one parent who encourages to risk, another who comforts when they fall short.(12)

§ Men and women can take on each other's part. However, most men and women are not predisposed or well-motivated to take on even temporarily the behavior and attitudes of the other sex. Most children want and need and can easily detect the real thing. Fatherless children are therefore at a distinct disadvantage. (12)

o Social changes including—

- Economic changes including women's employment opportunities, and earning ability.(43)

- Government incentives that reward people for being unmarried rather than married. This "welfare effect" is relatively modest (5.4% of population is receiving subsidies through AFDC).(44)

- Pushing aside traditional "Victorian" values of self-sacrifice, commitment to others, and institutional obligation, and adopting self-fulfillment as the dominant life goal. One of the reasons is the decline in institutional (church, government, education, and especially marriage) confidence.(45)

- Development of an anti-institutional frame of mind and skepticism of authority.(46)

- Development of an overly individualistic society resulting in personal alienation and a breakdown in social control of individual behavior.(48)

The decline of fatherhood is one of the most basic, unexpected, and extraordinary social trends of our time.(3)

  • From 1960 to 1990 the percent of children living apart from biological fathers doubled (from 17% to 36%).(3)
  • US divorce rate = 50%.(5)
  • 40% of all children do not live with their biological fathers.*(19)
  • Of children born in the past decade, 50% will not be living with both biological parents by age 17.(19)
  • Father absence is a major force behind crime and delinquency; premature sexuality and unwed pregnancy; deteriorating educational achievement; depression; substance abuse; poverty.(3)
  • Marriage and the nuclear family are the most universal social institutions in existence. "Legitimacy of children is another cultural universal."(4)
§ The Unattached Male. Society is heavily dependent on men being attached to a strong moral order centered on families, not only to help raise children but to discipline their own sexual behavior and to reduce their competitive aggression. Family life is a considerable civilizing force for men.(12)

o A high proportion of male criminals are unattached.(13)

o "Do we really want a society filled with single men, unattached to children, leading self-aggrandizing and often predatory lives?”(13)

o "The decline of fatherhood and of marriage cuts at the heart of the kind of environment considered ideal for child rearing. Such an environment… consists of an enduring two-parent family that...provides a great deal of quality contact time between adults and children...”(14)

§ Reasons for growth of fatherlessness include divorce, out-of-wedlock births, non-marital cohabitation, and sperm-donor fathers (20); divorce and non-marital births are the main culprits.(192)


§ Step families. (33)

  • 75% of divorced men remarry.
  • What divorced fathers do instead of parent their own children is to parent their stepchildren; commonly called "transient father syndrome", "serial parenting", and "child swapping."(33)
  • Far from providing a solution to the erosion of fatherhood, stepfamilies are very much a part of the problem. Step fathering acts very much to diminish contact between fathers and biological children. *(33)
  • In these new families, stepfathers take a less active role in parenting than do typical custodial biological fathers. *(33)
  • "Even after two years disengagement by the stepparen,t disengagement is the most common parenting style...characterized by low levels of involvement and rapport, and a lack of control, discipline, and monitoring of the stepchild's behavior and activities."*(33)
  • 62% of remarried women under age 40 will eventually divorce. 10% of remarriages without stepchildren and 17% with children end in divorce within 3 years. (33)
  • Not only is the quality of' family life in step families typically inferior to that of biological-parent families, but the children of step families face a greater chance of family breakup than they did in their original families. *(33)
  • 15% of children will go through two family disruptions before coming of age. *(33)
None of this demonstrates the usefulness of at fault divorce.

Could you at least consider the question and the replies to the question before providing walls of irrelevant text?

In my opinion.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fault divorce does not divorce, you just need a good reason before you traumatize the kids. Popenoe 2 tier system would place protections for kids and leave childless homes free to split up over toothpaste tubs and whatever other excuses peruse to end their marriages
'The recent research conducted by Trinder et al (2017) demonstrates that use of the fault-based facts can have a destructive impact on families and can promote conflict and acrimony. Furthermore, the fact that fault is required for the divorce petition, yet is very rarely relevant in financial remedy proceedings, can cause confusion for parties. There is no ascertainable purpose for the state requiring petitions to be based on fault. Indeed, the evidence suggests that requiring parties to allocate blame can have a detrimental impact on children, which is something that the state should avoid at all costs.'
Source: https://prdsitecore93.azureedge.net...77b791a&hash=32FE16ED0D474C8D30C050E17ACBF1B8

And they still retain irretrievable breakdown as the sole ground for divorce.

I've added the UK government consultation in for reference purposes, and because I think it provides a logical reasoning for why fault divorces go against the best interest of children;
https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digi...reducing-family-conflict-consult-response.pdf

In my opinion
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Some things are worth imposing, eg, punishment for murder.
Others are not, eg, enforcing marriage upon the unwilling.
These are generally accepted values in our society, outside
of Bible thumpers (who believe divorce is inherently wrong).
If they were unwilling, they shouldn't have gotten married. I'm not talking about a shotgun wedding (lol, two of my ex-coworkers just had one and I feel really sorry for the baby boy).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Yep. It is much too easy to get married. There should be more restrictions on it.
Remember: marriage is the main reason for divorce.
I think people need to remember the purpose of marriage - to provide a stable framework for having and raising children and to build a life together. It's not going to be easy, and you may well fall into disdain or even hatred for each other at times, which is usually caused by communication breakdown over a period of time. That's how relationships are. They are complicated and messy, even more so when you consider a relationship consisting of having children and spending decades together. Infatuation is not love, and passion may fluctuate. Fancy weddings and big diamond rings are not love. Sex is not the ultimate expression of love and people need to stop worshipping it as the most important aspect of a relationship. People need to remember these things if we are to fix the current mess, imo.
 
Last edited:

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
That wasn't knowable at the time.
Divorce happens because marriage changes for the worse.
To be clear, I definitely believe there are grounds for divorce in certain cases. If your spouse is beating you or your kids or otherwise physically abusing you or them - sure; if your spouse abandons you and is never heard from again - sure; if your spouse constantly cheats on you with others - sure. Situations like that, they've already broken the vows at that point. Even Catholics would believe there's cases where marriages become nullified. I just think it's far too easy these days, like what we see with celebrities as an example.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To be clear, I definitely believe there are grounds for divorce in certain cases. If your spouse is beating you or your kids or otherwise physically abusing you or them - sure; if your spouse abandons you and is never heard from again - sure; if your spouse constantly cheats on you with others - sure. Situations like that, they've already broken the vows at that point. Even Catholics would believe there's cases where marriages become nullified. I just think it's far too easy these days, like what we see with celebrities as an example.
I'll let'm divorce for any reason.
But then again...I'm one of those libertarians.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So forcing couples to remain married no matter what
their differences won't teach young'ns caution. It'll
just impose misery on the mistakenly married masses.

That's true, although they do take an oath and sign a contract. If they don't believe they can carry through with such a commitment, then they should think twice before making it.

After all, they say "till death do you part" at wedding ceremonies. If they were actually held to that promise, then that would probably cause people to sit up and take notice.
 
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