Vox Populi, Vox Dei

[Estro Felino]

Premise: This is a religious debate thread. So it is from the point of view of religion, not politics.

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma: all that a people, a nation wants and desires, is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a nation through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

 

[Estro Felino]

I wish Spain to be united. But since the Catalan Nation has decided to be independent, I need to abide by God's will by bowing to this verdict.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Premise: This is a religious debate thread. So it is from the point of view of religion, not politics.

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma, all that a people, a nation says is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a people through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

Well, then I am of a different religion, in that how I choose in the end, is between me and God and not me and other people.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, then I am of a different religion, in that how I choose in the end, is between me and God and not me and other people.

I speak of the Christian God.

 

[joe1776]

Back in the year 1850, half the world condoned slavery while the other half didn't. How might the voice of the people equal the word of God when it can hold opposite opinions on the same topic?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I speak of the Christian God.

Yeah, and I use a Protestant variant of God. We, Europeans, had a war about that, the Thirty Years War and the end result is in practice is that God is individual, unless you want another war between your God and mine.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Back in the year 1850, half the world condoned slavery while the other half didn't. How might the voice of the people equal the word of God when it can hold opposite opinions on the same topic?

Well, if you believe in a progressive God, then that is how it works. We get better at "love thy neighbor...".

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, and I use a Protestant variant of God. We, Europeans, had a war about that, the Thirty Years War and the end result is in practice is that God is individual, unless you want another war between your God and mine.

I think that in Isaiah and in so many other passages it is clearly said that the voice of the people is God's voice.

 

[Estro Felino]

Back in the year 1850, half the world condoned slavery while the other half didn't. How might the voice of the people equal the word of God when it can hold opposite opinions on the same topic?

That was not the people.
By people I mean all the citizens of a country, including blacks.
Who deserved to be citizens.
Slavery was decided by rich landowners of the South, people like Scarlett O'Hara's family.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think that in Isaiah and in so many other passages it is clearly said that the voice of the people is God's voice.

Yeah, that is your version. But we already had one war over that and reach a religious compromise in practice. You believe as you and I do it as I do. So even with your example, if the people decided that religion is individual, then that is the will of God.
In Denmark that is how, we the people, do it in the end. So now bow to the will of the people.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, that is your version. But we already had one war over that and reach a religious compromise in practice. You believe as you and I do it as I do. So even with your example, if the people decided that religion is individual, then that is the will of God.
In Denmark that is how, we the people, do it in the end. So now bow to the will of the people.

The Queen in Denmark is in charge because the people has wanted that dinasty to represent the nation.
Monarchy is the epitome of the concept Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The Queen in Denmark is in charge because the people has wanted that dinasty to represent the nation.
Monarchy is the epitome of the concept Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

Well, she has no actually power. She is a representative statehead, not an actual person with power.

 

[joe1776]

That was not the people.
By people I mean all the citizens of a country, including blacks.
Who deserved to be citizens.
Slavery was decided by rich landowners of the South, people like Scarlett O'Hara's family.

It won't matter how you define "people."

Slavery had been a morally acceptable practice in nearly the entire world at one time. It wasn't until the year 2000 that the legal practice was completely abolished. So, it's obvious that this transition, from accepted nearly 100% to abolished 0%, had a halfway point. I estimate that halfway point as 1850, but the precise year doesn't matter.

Slavery is OK and slavery is not OK can't both be God's Will.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It won't matter how you define "people."

Slavery had been a morally acceptable practice in nearly the entire world at one time. It wasn't until the year 2000 that the legal practice was completely abolished. So, it's obvious that this transition, from accepted nearly 100% to abolished 0%, had a halfway point. I estimate that halfway point as 1850, but the precise year doesn't matter.

Yeah, all forms are religion are the same so you just find a version you don't like and then you have won. The problem of your tactics is that religion evolve as it is a human cultural process.
In practice as an atheist, I find I agree with some religious people and not others. The same with the broader world view of atheists beyond being atheists.
Now if you want to play black and white, I will play black, white and shades of grey.

 

[Estro Felino]

It won't matter how you define "people."

Slavery had been a morally acceptable practice in nearly the entire world at one time. It wasn't until the year 2000 that the legal practice was completely abolished. So, it's obvious that this transition, from accepted nearly 100% to abolished 0%, had a halfway point. I estimate that halfway point as 1850, but the precise year doesn't matter.

Slavery is OK and slavery is not OK can't both be God's Will.

The feudal system in Europe was imposed by aristocracy and clergy on the people against their will.
Then the French Revolution took place and feudal system was abolished in France and then in the rest of Europe.
So ... even revolutions express the people's voice. The Nation's voice. And so God's voice.

Do you think God was or wasn't on the side of the French people assaulting the Bastille?

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, she has no actually power. She is a representative statehead, not an actual person with power.

Ok, I understand you had a Lutheran upbringing.
So, what changes?
Christians are supposed to believe in the common good, not in the individualistic welfare of one or few people.
Lutherans believe in the common welfare too.
And that's how God manifest itself in that common welfare.

 

[viole]

Premise: This is a religious debate thread. So it is from the point of view of religion, not politics.

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma: all that a people, a nation wants and desires, is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a nation through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

What do you do if the people decide that it is not the case that their voice is the voice of God?

ciao

- viole

 

[joe1776]

The feudal system in Europe was imposed by aristocracy and clergy on the people against their will.
Then the French Revolution took place and feudal system was abolished in France and then in the rest of Europe.
So ... even revolutions express the people's voice. The Nation's voice. And so God's voice.

Do you think God was or wasn't on the side of the French people assaulting the Bastille?

You seem to be missing my point. So, I'll try a different line.

If you said that you regard conscience as the Voice of God, as some Christians do, you'd get no argument from me because I think that conscience is the best evidence for the existence of a Creator. But, we humans are making moral progress which means that the "voice of the people" was once morally wrong, about a lot of things. Slavery is just one example of many.

 

[Estro Felino]

You seem to be missing my point. So, I'll try a different line.

If you said that you regard conscience as the Voice of God, as some Christians do, you'd get no argument from me because I think that conscience is the best evidence for the existence of a Creator. But, we humans are making moral progress which means that the "voice of the people" was once morally wrong, about a lot of things. Slavery was just one example of many.

Back when slavery was in force, there was no democracy.
And by democracy I mean that anyone can vote. Women, slaves.
This dogma is not applicable, unless there is democracy.

 

[joe1776]

Back when slavery was in force, there was no democracy.
And by democracy I mean that anyone can vote. Women, slaves.
This dogma is not applicable, unless there is democracy.

Your argument makes sense only if we assume the majority of people in our democratic societies have reached moral perfection thus accurately reflecting God's Will. My guess is that they haven't.