Eating a Dog

[KWED]

Humans are animals

They are. That is a simple, undeniable fact.

Put differently

You mean "put wrongly".

Human = Animal (X=Y)
Hence
Animal = Human (Y=X)

Well, hence I don't say "Humans are animals"

That argument is fundamentally flawed.
You are claiming that because all squares are rectangles, all rectangles are therefore squares. Or because all eagles are birds, all birds are therefore eagles. Which is obvious nonsense.
Genuinely baffled as to why you would present such a clearly terrible argument.

 

[KWED]

From that link:
"It’s basically the vegan version of flexitarian. Anyone following the diet eats mainly vegan, but allows themselves the odd bit of dairy, meat or fish whenever they feel like it."
Reminds me of the 3 meanings of the word vegan:
1. A type of diet.
2. A person who follows such a diet.
3. A person who has a certain total "lifestyle", not just diet. (eg wears no leather. I saw an advert recently for some running shoes which were described as vegan).

Indeed. Flexi-vegan is...
1. A type of diet
2. That I follow
3. Most of my lifestyle does not include any animal products, although it sometimes does (like my kangaroo hide bike leathers).

 

[KWED]

Unless they're not. My daughter has hemochromatosis, and its a killer if not treated. There is no cure, no medication, the only treatment is phlebotomy. Its caused by the liver not processing the iron but storing it thus reaching dangerous levels of saturation. She eats no processed food, or as little as possible. She does no dairy except for eggs and then only the whites, and a lot of seafood. I always tell people if they're having a routine blood test for any reason, ask to have the iron level checked as its not always routine.

People with hemochromatosis can safely eat meat.

 

[Pudding]

OK, about a decade ago, I was going to barbeque some meat that my wife was supposed to thaw out for me but forgot, thus I had my grill out but nothing to put on it. However, my neighbor's obnoxious dog was outside, so I went over to their house, took their dog, skinned it, cut it up, and then put it on the grill.

When the neighbor came home and found out what I'd done, I offered him money for the dog, but he still was angry. So, I asked him if he ever ate meat, and he said yes, so I then asked him what the problem was as I was more than willing to pay him for the dog. After all, if he eats meat, isn't that eating another animal as I did?

So, did I do wrong?

I'm aware your story and question is of hypothetical. I'm answering your question in a hypothetical manner.

Yes, in this hypothetical story you did do wrong. Your wrong doings include:
(1) You may break trespassing law.
(2) You steal your neighbor's dog, you commit theft.
(3) If your neighbor views the dog as their family member or friend, then you're killing their family member or friend.

OK, the above actually didn't happen, but my question for you is "What's the difference?" other than it's "not my dog".

I'll be back tomorrow.

Other than it's not your dog, other differences are:
(1) The dog is not your family member, the dog is not your friend. The dog might be your neighbor's family member or friend.
(2) To you, you skinned and cut up a dog (which is not your family member nor friend) and put it on the grill. To your neighbor, you might had skinned and cut up their family member or friend and put it on the grill.
(3) To you, you're just eating a dog (which is not your family member nor friend). To your neighbor, you might had eating their family member or friend.

 

[Clara Tea]

OK, about a decade ago, I was going to barbeque some meat that my wife was supposed to thaw out for me but forgot, thus I had my grill out but nothing to put on it. However, my neighbor's obnoxious dog was outside, so I went over to their house, took their dog, skinned it, cut it up, and then put it on the grill.

When the neighbor came home and found out what I'd done, I offered him money for the dog, but he still was angry. So, I asked him if he ever ate meat, and he said yes, so I then asked him what the problem was as I was more than willing to pay him for the dog. After all, if he eats meat, isn't that eating another animal as I did?

So, did I do wrong?

Wokked dog?

Religion is inexoribly tied to morality.

Beef comes from 8 month old calves. It is too expensive to allow them to grow up.

Milk comes from raped cows (they don't give milk unless pregnant).

Instead of eating carnivores (lions, or even domestic dogs), humans consume gentle herbivore lambs or cows.

I spoke with a PETA volunteer about saving cute little kittens. Kittens/cats are carnivores. Are we supposed to slaughter a calf to feed a cat? Is being humane about helping the cute? Cats sometimes torture mice. Isn't God cruel to allow torture?

If we're stranded, like the Donner party, do we eat ugly guys and save the cute young women?

Some say that God told us what we can and cannot eat, and it is in God's plan to slaughter meat for human consumption. If so, isn't God cruel?

Isn't God cruel to have one animal eat another? Sometimes, while the animal is screaming in pain, and they are consuming its leg.

On the other hand, many animals live fairly care-free lives, until a predator is chasing them. Then the end is often swift (and occasionally merciful). The only option to dying swiftly is starvation or disease, and that might be an even crueler death.

The Religious Right, no doubt,wants us to be kind to cute kittens, but why, then, condone torture camps and wars? God said "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek," and "do unto others."

 

[Clara Tea]

People with hemochromatosis can safely eat meat.

Not if it's still attached to the grizzly bear.

 

[Clara Tea]

Hate to say this, but it's a cultural norm (or not) thing. Is it ok to eat a horse? A cow? A cat? Depends on the country what's ok and what isn't. My pet is a meal in some countries.

California passed a law not to eat horse meat because the horse is a symbol of the old west, and horses have been cowboy's pals, and some are trained. Mine is an accountant....taps hoof for the numbers (IRS might lift an eyebrow over this one). Marshall Matt Dillon never did marry Kitty (owner of the Longbranch Saloon and brothel). Rather, he rode off on his horse (who knows what they did together).

California also passed a law that chickens could not be confined in tight spaces for very long, and their cages have to be large enough for them to lift their heads. One technique to prevent a rooster from crowing was to keep it in a pen that was too short to lift its head. Now, California chickens have to free roam (outside of a cage) for a certain number of hours. It gives new meaning to "Malibu chicken." (I have no idea how they get the chickens to wear bikinis).

 

[Clara Tea]

I'm aware your story and question is of hypothetical. I'm answering your question in a hypothetical manner.

Yes, in this hypothetical story you did do wrong. Your wrong doings include:
(1) You may break trespassing law.
(2) You steal your neighbor's dog, you commit theft.
(3) If your neighbor views the dog as their family member or friend, then you're killing their family member or friend.


Other than it's not your dog, other differences are:
(1) The dog is not your family member, the dog is not your friend. The dog might be your neighbor's family member or friend.
(2) To you, you skinned and cut up a dog (which is not your family member nor friend) and put it on the grill. To your neighbor, you might had skinned and cut up their family member or friend and put it on the grill.
(3) To you, you're just eating a dog (which is not your family member nor friend). To your neighbor, you might had eating their family member or friend.

It would be cruel to eat your own dog. But many people have problems with the neighbor's dog barking, chasing them and their mailmen, and chewing on their slippers in the yard.

I was thinking that the dog was a family member. After a while, dogs and their owners start to look alike.

I once spent the entire month of Yam, praying to Dog for a cure for dyslexia.

 

[Clara Tea]

Hate to say this, but it's a cultural norm (or not) thing. Is it ok to eat a horse? A cow? A cat? Depends on the country what's ok and what isn't. My pet is a meal in some countries.

Bart Simpson said "hey, don't have a cow, man."

 

[Clara Tea]

You live in China, don't you? It was a delicacy! The problem with your neighbor is that it was HIS meal.

When the 2008 recession hit, the phone poles were covered by lost pet pictures. "Have you seen Fluffy?" "Have you seen Yumyum" (aptly named). I think that the homeless got them.

 

[Clara Tea]

Yes because you stole from your neighbor. Barbecue your own dog!

Burp. Evidence?

 

[Clara Tea]

I own both right now.

And am emotionally attached to both.

I don't want to leave the house for trips and leave my pets. So, I pet the neighbors cats. They have to feed them and take them to the vet, and they don't come when they call them.

 

[Clara Tea]

So when you read the hypothetical in the OP, your mind didn't pretty much instantly go to the question "how did the neighbor react" or some variation thereof?

What I mean to say is, it seems to me that in general at least, human suffering has more weight in moral reasoning then non-human suffering.

This is why the hypothetical of killing someone's pet is morally worse then killing some wild animal instead.

The Religious Right cares about fetuses (and pre-fetuses), but makes wars and torture camps. Too young to vote, boys are drafted, and some don't believe in war, and some don't ascribe to the same political agendas.

What did we accomplish in 30 years of fighting Iraq? A reputation for fighting a nearly disarmed enemy (and losing)? Aggrevating the Middle East by occupying and corrupting a nation (the US managed their elections so that they were not permitted to elect anti-American candidates...until the recent pull-out, and Americans tried to Americanize the women by forcing them not to wear bhirkas.

 

[Clara Tea]

My OP was a "set up" as it didn't really happen.

We know.

So, when are you going to invite us over for the bbq? If serving the body of Christ (bread) and the blood of Christ (wine), I have dibs on the gizzard.

 

[Clara Tea]

Yes, I know the developmental history of dogs.

From my advaita perspective, there is only One and the part of that One which are humans helped develop dogs to fill a spiritual ecological niche.

Gorillas capture wild dogs, and train them to protect them against the wild dog pack. So, I'm not so sure that humans were the ones to domesticate dogs.

 

[Koldo]

That was my point. It isn't a moral issue. It is neither "right" nor "wrong". It simply "is".

Aren't you the one projecting when you say it is not a moral issue?

There you go again, projecting your own morality onto others. You may consider it immoral, others may not. It is not a "fact", as you claim.
Morality is subjective and differs from person to person.

I genuinely don't think I am projecting.
I genuinely have never come across anyone that sees cheating, in general, as anything other than immoral.

 

[Clara Tea]

You ultimately get B12 from bacteria. They even culture something called "nutritional yeast" which is relatively high in B12. From what I have heard, they let the bacteria feast on molasses, and the dried resulting flakes are what are known as "nutritional yeast". No actual, higher-order "animals" involved.

It is also possible to get B12 from contaminated (i.e. crapped on) vegetation. Basically, the bacteria in the gut of many animals produce quite a bit of B12 (rats even have a second digestive tract that passes waste through a second time, after the bacteria has a chance to manufacture B12), and so it is present in fecal matter.

There is a good amount of evidence to suggest that large quantities of meat were never expected to be a part of our diets. Some, perhaps. But most people eat far more (nearly ever meal for a lot of people) than we're designed for. For example, full-blown carnivores have a very short digestive tract, which means that rotting meat (and all the bacteria that comes with it) doesn't stay in their systems for very long at all. Our digestive tract, on the other hand, is enormously long. This means that any meat we do eat is bound for a pretty long journey through our system, and this isn't an advantageous thing, hence the reason long digestive tracts were bred out of, or avoided by developing carnivores. Our human propensity and ability to "cook" meat saves us here quite a bit, as we have killed most of the bad bacteria by the time it hits the relatively "long haul" processes of our digestive system. So, if we were eating raw meat (the way all other animals do), then a lot of people continuing with their current levels of meat consumption, and given their long digestive tracts, would likely run into complications.

So yes, we're omnivores. A simple examination of our teeth confirms this. But by no means does this mean that we need meat at every meal, or even every day, or even at all!

As an aside - as far as dairy goes - in what way would it even make sense for us to develop requiring the gestationally produced milk products of an entirely different species? In short... we don't require it. At all. It is concentrated nutrient, sure. But if you listened to (for example) the US FDA at times, you'd walk away thinking we humans need dairy. This simply cannot be possible. Need calcium in some form? Sure. But need "dairy"? No.

"No higher order species evolve"....Creationists expect instantaneous results of evolution, if it exists at all. But if it was an instantaneous process, we'd be inundated with new species. Evolution is a very slow process.

The fact that we have to deal with mutations of the flu and covid, shows that evolution is real and happens within our lifetime.

Often creationists argue that mutations are not the same as speciation, but they are (over time, when animals adapt to new environments or new niches within the same environment).

 

[Clara Tea]

From that survey of Americans, 59% say they have heightened stress while food shopping. Odd. Maybe the stress makes them eat more?

Farm life is even more stressful. Meat in the supermarket is neatly packaged and weighed. At the farm, you have to butcher and eat an animal that you have fed and tended for months. Often you train a cow to go to its own stall for milking, so you know that it is intelligent. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs and can be trained to do a variety of tricks.

Farm kids are often drilled with the idea that the animals are for consumption. That doesn't take away all of the stress when it comes time to butcher them.

The 4H raises animals, then auctions them to slaughter houses. Prize bulls are sold off for meat (oddly, not for milking...maybe they use cows for that). I think that the bull is warming up to me....only butted me 45 feet last time.

By divorcing ourselves from the production of food, we fail to see the cruelties.

 

[Polymath257]

Humans are animals

Put differently

Human = Animal (X=Y)
Hence
Animal = Human (Y=X)

Well, hence I don't say
"Humans are animals"

Subset, not equality. The set of humans is a subset of the set of animals. But the set of animals is NOT a subset of the set of humans.

Language is ambiguous in this way: we often say "X is Y" when what we mean is that the set of X is a subset of the set of Y.

 

[We Never Know]

So I do this to my neighbour's obnoxious wife. Did I do wrong?

Did you offer to pay for her?