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The second amendment

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
This thread is for discussing the second amendment civilly and cordially.
:)


Feel free to express why you endorse it, and why you think it should not be changed.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
For reference on the 2nd amendment of the U.S.A.

Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
For reference on the 2nd amendment of the U.S.A.

Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Since English is not my first language and I am not good at syntax can you break it down alone these lines.
 

Viker

Häxan
For reference on the 2nd amendment of the U.S.A.

Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Notice. It starts with 'well regulated'. Many Americans ignore that part in favor of the last part 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'. Should give outsiders a glimpse of the issues we are having.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Notice. It starts with 'well regulated'. Many Americans ignore that part in favor of the last part 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'. Should give outsiders a glimpse of the issues we are having.

Well, here is my take and it is a totality read based on my understanding of the historical context and thus a form of reading the original intent.

All persons have a right to weapons as well-regulated and if you break the rules, you don't have that right. Further the purpose of allowing all persons the right is that it makes it more democratic and thus allows for a militia to be able to stand up to a government army.

So the right of bearing arms is connected to partake in the defence of the people against the power of the government.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how we think the Second Amendment should be interpreted.

In the USA, our Constitution is useful only as a tool enabling the minority to obstruct the will of the majority. The strategy is simple: If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law.

It's absurd to think that we should be guided on our 2022 moral choices about guns by the Founders, men who owned slaves and didn't give women the right to vote or hold public office. If they thought they could get away with it, the Republican Party could make a valid argument that appointing a woman (Kamala Harris) to the Vice-Presidency is clearly unconstitutional.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
This thread is for discussing the second amendment civilly and cordially.
:)


Feel free to express why you endorse it, and why you think it should not be changed.
It's a legitimate protection. Especially from the possibility of a rouge government or foreign power that threatens people's constitutional freedoms and rights.

Unfortunately, as with everything, there are exterior curcumstances like mass shootings that threatens the second amendment itself aside from the valid reasons people are encouraged to keep and bear arms for.

So it becomes a struggle between security and safety vs ones freedoms against tyranny.

Without the second amendment people would be ill equipped to handle things that could make mass shooting miniscule in comparison.

The second amendment needs to stay intact but with some revisions to address modern issues that didn't exist during the time when the amendment was drafted and ratified.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It doesn't matter how we think the Second Amendment should be interpreted.

In the USA, our Constitution is useful only as a tool enabling the minority to obstruct the will of the majority. The strategy is simple: If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law.

It's absurd to think that we should be guided on our 2022 moral choices about guns by the Founders, men who owned slaves and didn't give women the right to vote or hold public office. If they thought they could get away with it, the Republican Party could make a valid argument that appointing a woman (Kamala Harris) to the Vice-Presidency is clearly unconstitutional.

So what is your basis for how to do rights, duties, taxes, laws and government?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
For reference on the 2nd amendment of the U.S.A.

Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
And people in those days actually owned their arms, and took them home with them.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
History of 2nd amendment:
The Second Amendment Was Ratified to Preserve Slavery
So Madison, who had (at Jefferson’s insistence) already begun to prepare proposed amendments to the US Constitution, changed his first draft of one that addressed the militia issue to make sure it was unambiguous that the southern states could maintain their slave patrol militias.

His first draft for what became the Second Amendment had said: “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country [emphasis mine]: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

But Henry, Mason and others wanted southern states to preserve their slave-patrol militias independent of the federal government. So Madison changed the word “country” to the word “state,” and redrafted the Second Amendment into today’s form:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State [emphasis mine], the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
For more than 200 years, since 1791, the amendment was interpreted to refer to an organized militia, rather than an individual right to gun ownership. It wasn't until the District of Columbia vs Heller decision, in 2008, that the NRA/Gun industry campaign finally reïnterpreted it to include individuals.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When the second amendment was written, average citizens used their own weapons when called up for military duty (not exclusively, but largely). These militias were instrumental for winning the revolutionary war. A citizen army was seen as one of the guards against an oppressive government.

So, the 2nd amendment was written to specifically address that concern. The goal was to keep the federal government in check.

But it should also be noted that the amendment specifically states that the militia should be well-regulated, meaning that it was run by the individual states (not the federal government). And guess what? All US states have 'National Guards' that do precisely this.

The problem is that the 2nd amendment, like all others, is not absolute. You do not have freedom of religion to the point that human sacrifice is allowed. You do not have freedom of speech to the point to yell 'fire' in a crowded theater (interesting story on this one, by the way). And you don't have the right to have a personal military stockpile.

For many people, guns are a necessary tool of their jobs. On a farm, they are simply one of the many dangerous tools that are used on a daily basis. Historically, hunting was a means of income and a way to put food on the plates. That is less so today, of course.

The current difficulties have to do with how to regulate gun ownership in such a way that those who are unstable, untrained, and irresponsible are not allowed to own these dangerous pieces of machinery.

At the very least, I would expect every gun owner to be part of a well-regulated militia that gives rigorous training on the use and misuse of their devices and has regular mental health screening to be sure the person is stable enough to continue to own their weapons. That would satisfy the 2nd amendment and lead to a much healthier attitude towards guns.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I read it as two parts.
Part 1. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State.
The security of a free state is formost and a militia is necesary, when needed, to insure that security.
Part 2. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
A militia is cosnsist of citizens that are not subsidized by the government for their equipment.
Thus the citizens must supply their own equipment; hence the right to bear arms is a Constitutional right.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I read it as two parts.
Part 1. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State.
The security of a free state is formost and a militia is necesary, when needed, to insure that security.
Part 2. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
A militia is cosnsist of citizens that are not subsidized by the government for their equipment.
Thus the citizens must supply their own equipment; hence the right to bear arms is a Constitutional right.

Also, to 'bear arms' originally meant to join such a militia.
 
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