Pope Francis and LGBT people

[metis]

That's fine - but it is my opinion and the opinion of Pope Francis - both of which are supported by the Bible.

So - if you want to talk about Pope Francis and his opinion - which is based on the Bible - then you should be prepared to hear this stuff.

Don't come in here trying to manipulate people into thinking Pope Francis believes in or espouses things he never claimed to.

The Catholic Church is not synonymous with the Gestapo, and we as Catholics have the right of personal discernment per the Catechism.

You don't need to believe that the Bible or other books of scripture are inerrant to learn that homosexual behavior is sinful.

IYO.

 

[metis]

You don't need to judge when you see a criminal killing people in the street and getting caught because his crime.

You know he will go to jail even before his case is in court. That is not judging, that is knowing what his destiny will be for what he did.

Same with homosexuals and lesbians, it is known that the God rejects them. No need to research about it, homosexuality is abomination for the God.

So, now you believe you can speak for God, eh.

I'll let Him do the judging.

 

[Luchito Prays]

Of course.

So, here's my point: if God made all, including homosexuals, then why should we view homosexual activity as being a "sin"?

We should always remember that the scriptures in any religion reflect the mores and folkways of their region of origin going back thousands of years ago. Thus, they would have no clue about genetics and the subsequent phenotypes. I tend to think that PF likely understands this, thus is sorta encouraging a "new look" on this, but he has to be very cautious of pushing this too far as many bishops are clearly not fond of him.

You have not read the Bible.

Your sexual desires -anyone of them- can't overcome your actions. You can control them.

You are not a beast of the forest in order to be guided by your instinct alone, you are a human, with reasoning.

Don't you?

 

[Luchito Prays]

So, now you believe you can speak for God, eh.

I'll let Him do the judging.

God says homosexuality is abomination.

I didn't have to wait much, I just read the Bible and is right there.

Then, people who practice homosexuality are abominable people to the God.

This is not judging, this is understanding what the Bible says clear and sound.

 

[sun rise]

God says homosexuality is abomination.

I didn't have to wait much, I just read the Bible and is right there.

Then, people who practice homosexuality are abominable people to the God.

This is not judging, this is understanding what the Bible says clear and sound.

If you're going all in on abominations and the Bible, you must include all of them: Abomination (Bible) - Wikipedia which makes all women who wear pants an abomination unto the Lord.

Tōʻēḇā is also used in Jewish (and Christian Old Testament) scriptures to refer to:

1. idolatry or idols (Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13:14, Isaiah 44:19)
2. illicit sex (e.g. prostitution, adultery, incest) (Ezekiel 16:22,58, Ezekiel 22:11, Ezekiel 33:26)
3. illicit marriage (Deuteronomy 24:2–4)
4. a man "lying with a man as with a woman" (see Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible) (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 18:27–30, Leviticus 20:13)
5. temple prostitution (1Kings 14:24)
6. offerings from the above (Deuteronomy 23:18)
7. child sacrifice to Molech (Jeremiah 32:35)
8. cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5)
9. cheating in the market by using rigged weights (Deuteronomy 25:13–19, Proverbs 11:1)
10. dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22)
11. pride (Proverbs 16:5)
12. unclean animals (Deuteronomy 14:3)
13. stealing, murder, and adultery, breaking covenants (Jeremiah 7:9,10)
14. usury, violent robbery, murder, oppressing the poor and needy, etc. (Ezekiel 18:10–13)

 

[Rival]

If you're going all in on abominations and the Bible, you must include all of them: Abomination (Bible) - Wikipedia which makes all women who wear pants an abomination unto the Lord.

Tōʻēḇā is also used in Jewish (and Christian Old Testament) scriptures to refer to:

1. idolatry or idols (Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13:14, Isaiah 44:19)
2. illicit sex (e.g. prostitution, adultery, incest) (Ezekiel 16:22,58, Ezekiel 22:11, Ezekiel 33:26)
3. illicit marriage (Deuteronomy 24:2–4)
4. a man "lying with a man as with a woman" (see Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible) (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 18:27–30, Leviticus 20:13)
5. temple prostitution (1Kings 14:24)
6. offerings from the above (Deuteronomy 23:18)
7. child sacrifice to Molech (Jeremiah 32:35)
8. cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5)
9. cheating in the market by using rigged weights (Deuteronomy 25:13–19, Proverbs 11:1)
10. dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22)
11. pride (Proverbs 16:5)
12. unclean animals (Deuteronomy 14:3)
13. stealing, murder, and adultery, breaking covenants (Jeremiah 7:9,10)
14. usury, violent robbery, murder, oppressing the poor and needy, etc. (Ezekiel 18:10–13)

Well, to be fair, many churches do consider most of these things at least immoral. Certainly numbers # 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14. Same-sex marriage is still not allowed in the RCC, AC and OC. Cross dressing is not welcome in many churches either.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just like how a person inclined to anger is not committing sin by just being angry

When a man looks upon a woman and lusts after her, he has already committed adultery in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)
It seems like the thoughts are just as sinful.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't need to judge when you see a criminal killing people in the street and getting caught because his crime.

You know he will go to jail even before his case is in court. That is not judging, that is knowing what his destiny will be for what he did.

Same with homosexuals and lesbians, it is known that the God rejects them. No need to research about it, homosexuality is abomination for the God.

How lucky are we to have you here, God's self-appointed spokesperson, to tell us all what parts of God's creation he hates.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Cross dressing is not welcome in many churches either.

I have to wonder, though, if the author of that verse in Deutoronomy would consider any modern fashions to be "cross dressing".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't need to believe that the Bible or other books of scripture are inerrant to learn that homosexual behavior is sinful.

Yeah, actually you do.

 

[sun rise]

I have to wonder, though, if the author of that verse in Deutoronomy would consider any modern fashions to be "cross dressing".

Heh. What I found : :What Does the Bible Say About Cross Dressing?:

It seems a man can wear women's clothing unless it's her cloak, for example. And those shamless hussies who braid their hair - my goodness how sinful they are.

Deuteronomy 22:5 ESV / 227 helpful votes
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 ESV / 39 helpful votes
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

1 Corinthians 11:6 ESV / 5 helpful votes
For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.
.

 

[Five Solas]

Now, devout Christians and other Abrahamic theists will immediately fall back on the "freewill" of mankind, but that's nothing more than a feeble cop-out to excuse the absolutely atrocious behavior of the God they worship.

Not so...

About free will

I also notice that many people who call themselves Christian lay claim to free will.

The Bible teaches that humans have a will (and desires) but that will is not free because it is bound by, and controlled by, our human nature - like a fish is bound by the nature of a fish that lives in water.

Part of the human nature is the capability (and outright willingness) to sin and the capability to be tremendously evil.

The human race is the most evil and cruel being living on earth. Humans are capable of more evil on a scale not possible for animals.

About secularists

It is revealing that secular people and atheists, who do not believe in God, have such strong ideas about how they think God should be and act. They often spout hatred for a God they think do not exist. One cannot hate something that does not exist, it’s silly – so what they say must show their hatred of believers but they do not have the guts to say that.

God’s Sovereign Control

His control means that everything happens according to his plan and intention.

Authority means that all his commands ought to be obeyed – but only the believers care to do that.

Presence means that we encounter God’s control and authority in all that exists – no one can escape from his justice or his love.

God did not have to create anything, but it pleased Him to do so. God saves whom he wants to save and condemns whom he wishes. God made everything and then sometimes destroy some of it. He is the potter, we are the clay – he does what is His will.

We tread on uncertain but holy ground when we talk about divine sovereignty. There are aspects to this truth that we cannot understand or comprehend – He is not bound by human rights.

 

[Five Solas]

Yeah, actually you do.

Hi,
Is this what you pray for? Do you put it there?

Teach me how to Satan..teach me..teach me how to Satan
I know the Devil loves me...know the...know the Devil loves me.

 

[Five Solas]

But what does this say about God? Shouldn't an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God be able to do more to alleviate the suffering of Its creation?

Your question is relevant but what you fail to ask, as well, is what does it say about the human race and our responsibility?

The world we live in tells us much about God – true - but then we must consider everything. I say in another post that part of human nature is the capability (and outright desire and willingness) to sin and the capability to be tremendously evil. The human race is the most evil and most cruel being living on earth. Humans are capable of more evil on a scale not possible for animals. Can we blame God for that?

It is clearly part of human nature to do evil. We have a will strong enough (although it is not free) to mess up properly. But can we blame God for that? Are we not responsible for our own actions? How dare we do evil and then blame God for not stopping us?


God is doing something. When God offers an alternative – a way out of the deadly cycle of sin and its consequences – people sneer at that as well. Fact: God already did something and He is continuing to do so. People can change. People can do His will and love the way we should love Him and each other. But people mock God for what He is doing in the same breath they blame Him for whatever goes wrong.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your question is relevant but what you fail to ask, as well, is what does it say about the human race and our responsibility?

The world we live in tells us much about God – true - but then we must consider everything. I say in another post that part of human nature is the capability (and outright desire and willingness) to sin and the capability to be tremendously evil. The human race is the most evil and most cruel being living on earth. Humans are capable of more evil on a scale not possible for animals. Can we blame God for that?

It is clearly part of human nature to do evil. We have a will strong enough (although it is not free) to mess up properly. But can we blame God for that? Are we not responsible for our own actions? How dare we do evil and then blame God for not stopping us?


God is doing something. When God offers an alternative – a way out of the deadly cycle of sin and its consequences – people sneer at that as well. Fact: God already did something and He is continuing to do so. People can change. People can do His will and love the way we should love Him and each other. But people mock God for what He is doing in the same breath they blame Him for whatever goes wrong.

I believe different about God and evil.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Your question is relevant but what you fail to ask, as well, is what does it say about the human race and our responsibility?

The world we live in tells us much about God – true - but then we must consider everything. I say in another post that part of human nature is the capability (and outright desire and willingness) to sin and the capability to be tremendously evil. The human race is the most evil and most cruel being living on earth. Humans are capable of more evil on a scale not possible for animals. Can we blame God for that?

It is clearly part of human nature to do evil. We have a will strong enough (although it is not free) to mess up properly. But can we blame God for that? Are we not responsible for our own actions? How dare we do evil and then blame God for not stopping us?


God is doing something. When God offers an alternative – a way out of the deadly cycle of sin and its consequences – people sneer at that as well. Fact: God already did something and He is continuing to do so. People can change. People can do His will and love the way we should love Him and each other. But people mock God for what He is doing in the same breath they blame Him for whatever goes wrong.

But why is it part of human nature? If God is omni-etc. and created humans, why include the evil then punish us for it? God is capable, certainly, if God is omnipotent and omniscient. By not doing so, God cannot be omnibenevolent. And, if omnibenevolent, then God is either not aware, or God' power to intervene is lacking.

 

[Five Solas]

Pope to LGBT Catholics: 'God is Father who does not disown any of his children' - Vatican News
.

About the RCC and the Pope: In the RC church one must do certain things to be saved. So good deeds are for salvation not because of salvation. They firmly deny that but it is clear from what they often say. That implies their thinking will be muddled and confusing to all. All should know that church membership does not lead to salvation as such. In other words, membership of the RCC does not guarantee salvation.

Many people - mostly the WOKE ones - rejoice in what the Pope had said. But to clarify this discussion, do Christians agree with the following?

1. God's will/law is for all people but only those who believe in Him understand it and are willing to do it.

2. People who do not believe in God do not care - not about God, not about His law, and not about His will, nor about His message. They are incapable to do His will, in fact, they do not want to do His will.

3. About God's people/children: the Bible teaches that there is but one people of God and only one way of salvation. In 1 Pet 2:9 Peter calls his mostly Gentile audience “a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a people for his own possession.” These are all terms used for the nation of Israel in the Old Testament (Ex 19:5-6) and Peter applies them to the church because the church is the true Israel of God. So, God's children are not just anyone - it is only those who believe in God and who trust in Christ alone for salvation.

4. About judgment: On judgment day, when Jesus returns in glory, he will judge the living and the dead - whether they believed in Him and whether they did His will. Will the sins of believers be judged? - I think not, because our sins had already been removed because of what Jesus did on the cross. We have already been forgiven.

5. Can people outside the church prescribe to the church what to do? Or alternatively, when secularists and atheists rejoice in what the church had said, is there not something very wrong in what the church said? Satan does not like God, nor His church, nor its message. If Satan rejoices in the church's message then we should be worried, or not?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

About the RCC and the Pope: In the RC church one must do certain things to be saved. So good deeds are for salvation not because of salvation. They firmly deny that but it is clear from what they often say. That implies their thinking will be muddled and confusing to all. All should know that church membership does not lead to salvation as such. In other words, membership of the RCC does not guarantee salvation.

Many people - mostly the WOKE ones - rejoice in what the Pope had said. But to clarify this discussion, do Christians agree with the following?

1. God's will/law is for all people but only those who believe in Him understand it and are willing to do it.

2. People who do not believe in God do not care - not about God, not about His law, and not about His will, nor about His message. They are incapable to do His will, in fact, they do not want to do His will.

...

I agree with one in a sense.
I disagree with 2, because I believe in a different God.

 

[Five Solas]

I believe different about God and evil.

Fair enough.

I believe in God and how He revealed Himself through history and how it is written down in Scripture.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Fair enough.

I believe in God and how He revealed Himself through history and how it is written down in Scripture.

Yeah, and my God is not even a He.